Dear PaddleWisers, a Swedish athletic, Jonas Rappe died hypothermic at hospital on last Saturday morning at 4. a.m. He capsized on Friday afternoon with his friend when crossing a lake and the distance to the closest shore was one (1) kilometre. Surprisingly, the kayak, which was described as a 'extra sea-safe' sank. It took about 50 minutes to cover swimming the before mentioned 1 kilometre because also the other kayak capsized during the rescue. His friend did his best to help Rappe after they had reached a small island. He was wet and cold, but he courageously swam to the NEXT island and ran more than 2 kilometres in forest until he found help. There are many obvious questions. I am not quite sure how he was dressed because the press info fom his club was not revealing all facts. The water and weather conditions are also not described with details. I will try to translate the basic facts from the press file ASAP, though my Swedish is quite awful... I am very curious about the kayaks. Here are three links to those who understand Swedish: http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/karlstad/story/0,2789,1026040,00.html http://www.karlstadmultisport.com/e107_docs/blandat/KMS_20070317.pdf http://www.multisport.se/nyheter/nyhet.php?id=405 Considering the recent postings to PW list, this tragedy might be part of our learning curve... Ari -Finland, where the coastline is still covered by ice and cabin fever makes me crazy *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Monday 26 March 2007 07:40, Ari wrote: > And these guys were in *extremely* good condition. Mr. Rappe was > competing in World Championship Multisport games... I believe there are > lessons to be learned. If mr Rappe had been isolated by a thick layer of fat, like a seal, he most likely would have survived, but the more lean you are - competing athletes tend to be very lean - the greater the dangers when it comes to hypothermia. Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Whenever I see the news of someone surviving in BC's cold water after falling overboard and surviving atypical lengths of time in that water, they are inevitably rotund individuals. It either means heavy people survive better, or it could mean heavier people are the ones who always fall overboard. Maybe they just float better. Mike doesn't usually make a post unless his facts are dead on. I'll have to look up some current research to see what body mass indexes and fitness levels predict for cold water immersion outcomes. Certainly those men with chiseled figures and great abs do better on the beach with the chicks. :-) Doug L > Mike, > > fitness might be OK for getting back into your kayak. It is good for > survival skills and covering distances. It might be good for almost > everything we do at cold waters. But I have very strong suspicions that > the discussions about fat versus skills do not actually matter so much. > Rappe was probably many ways skilled and in perfect physical condition. > > Best, > > Ari *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > I'll have to look up some current > research to see what body mass indexes and fitness levels predict for > cold water immersion outcomes. I read about it years ago and fitness likely is a better predictor of short term survival ability than long term (as Ari suggests). Once any person is in the water long enough (where long is very few minutes) the outer extremities are shut down and then insulation is important. However, as Prof. Popsicle (Giesbrecht) and others have pointed out, the ability to control yourself and deal with the situation in the first seconds to minute is critical to long-term survival. Again, as Ari pointed out, it likely will make a difference for a paddler in the period when they are attempting to re-enter the kayak. I've been contacted back-channel about my comments on fit vs fat. I did say fit vs fat, not skinny vs fat. Fat _and_ fit will outperform skinny and way out of shape. Fat levels don't strictly dictate fitness (though extreme overweight and obesity pretty much preclude fitness). If you compare runners to distance swimmers, the swimmers almost always show less muscle definition due to a thicker layer of fat on their bodies (the muscle is under there, just not as obvious as in the 4-8% body fat athletes). If you spend that much time in the water (even in heated pools) that little bit of fat is beneficial. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi, I do agree with you about the short term survival. My personal opinion is that the first 10 minutes count most. And the first 10 seconds. The club is not answering my e-mails... so maybe we will never know about thire kayaks! It is possible that the funeral is during this weekend, so I will try again. Cheers, Ari -who is waking up tomorrow at 6 a.m. to make the first trip of the season. Waters are from +1 to +2 Centigrades, night temps will be about 0 C on Sunday night. On 30. maalis 2007, at 19:22, Michael Daly wrote: > I read about it years ago and fitness likely is a better predictor of > short term survival ability than long term (as Ari suggests). Once > any person is in the water long enough (where long is very few > minutes) the outer extremities are shut down and then insulation is > important. > > However, as Prof. Popsicle (Giesbrecht) and others have pointed out, > the ability to control yourself and deal with the situation in the > first seconds to minute is critical to long-term survival. Again, as > Ari pointed out, it likely will make a difference for a paddler in the > period when they are attempting to re-enter the kayak. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks Mike: I have a friend who swims competitively in the ocean. He has almost no body fat. He is older than most of us. He is very fast. He swims year-round to train. His resting heart rate is lower than most twenty year olds. While he does wear a light, competitive wet suit designed for triathletes, he doesn't get cold even after long swims. He attributes this to the conditioning regime in cold water. His body has adjusted. I assume fitness and cold-water adjustment are factors precluding hypothermia, both warding of the effects initially and subsequently. The guys that seem to really last the longest in cold water (multi day survival) seem to be big men, big-boned, overweight but in fairly good shape - namely fishermen, though many die shortly after falling overboard in stormy seas due to inhalation of water, even with hypothermia suits on. Doug L > I read about it years ago and fitness likely is a better predictor of > short term survival ability than long term (as Ari suggests). Once any > person is in the water long enough (where long is very few minutes) the > outer extremities are shut down and then insulation is important. > > However, as Prof. Popsicle (Giesbrecht) and others have pointed out, the > ability to control yourself and deal with the situation in the first > seconds to minute is critical to long-term survival. Again, as Ari > pointed out, it likely will make a difference for a paddler in the period > when they are attempting to re-enter the kayak. > > I've been contacted back-channel about my comments on fit vs fat. I did > say fit vs fat, not skinny vs fat. Fat _and_ fit will outperform skinny > and way out of shape. Fat levels don't strictly dictate fitness (though > extreme overweight and obesity pretty much preclude fitness). If you > compare runners to distance swimmers, the swimmers almost always show less > muscle definition due to a thicker layer of fat on their bodies (the > muscle is under there, just not as obvious as in the 4-8% body fat > athletes). If you spend that much time in the water (even in heated > pools) that little bit of fat is beneficial. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > He attributes > this to the conditioning regime in cold water. His body has adjusted. I > assume fitness and cold-water adjustment are factors precluding > hypothermia, both warding of the effects initially and subsequently. Don't underestimate how much heat you can generate while swimming. You are using both arms and legs and that will put you into the same category as sports like cross-country skiing. In my competitive days, I could spend an entire day outside skiing and training wearing what most would find cool in an office - and that's at temps well below freezing. When I finish swimming (~2 km at a time in a pool) I am pumping out heat for quite a while afterwords - no towel can get me dry :-) That's another area where fitness is a benefit - you can generate heat for a longer time. Without training (either in the form of sports or hard work) your muscles don't store enough glycogen to keep going. That extends your time to survival. However, you do need insulation to prevent the generated heat from just transferring to the water as you move to keep warm. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"what was the water temperature in this case?" "The water temperature was three days later, on March 19th, 380F (surface, close the coastline, -+30C), according the Meteorologic and Hydrologic Institute of Sweden. " So, 38 degrees Fahrenheit, 3+ degrees Celsius. Very cold water. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello, I just did return home from my trip. The dock of my kayak was in frost in this morning, and the sponge I do use for cleaning the compartments was frozen. The tent was +2 C. Very refreshing, after slightly burning my face in bright sunshine! Immigrating birds have loud all-night-orgies. Very romantic. Maybe I will ask my partner Rita to join me next time... or, considering the temperatures, that might be a very bad idea. Rappe's friend, who tired to save him, answered to my e-mail. I will continue my little investigations and report to you, after I have had new answers. He wants to stay anonymous, as he also did in Swedish media. Naturally, I do respect him. Cheers, Ari > So, 38 degrees Fahrenheit, 3+ degrees Celsius. Very cold water. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello again. I have some new details, which describe the clothing and their kayaks. Summa summarum: they were both using neoprene trousers from 'feet to navel' with neoprene boots. I do not yet have any clue how thick the material was, but usually paddlers are here using 3 mm stuff. Upper body was covered with Craft sports underwear and a light sports raincoat (Marmot Essence: ripstop nylon with outer coating of waterproof polyurethane). They both had neoprene gloves, but seemingly nothing to cover their heads. The 'sea-safe' kayaks were 'Defenders', built for Multisport races, very narrow and light. You can find them at http://www.sissonkayaks.co.nz/defender.htm I have not yet asked all questions which are running in my mind, because I am strongly considering writing an article about this. It will take some time, especially if I want to continue my interview with Rappe's friend and keep some distance to my personal opinions. Their mental determination, exhausted cell phone and club's cold water training/safety lessons are first now on my list. Also, his friend seems to remember the wind a bit incorrectly: he claims it was only 2 to 3 meter per second. It was like that in the morning, but the statistics of the local airport do differ. The reason might be that they were surfing the following waves and not facing the wind (so, where did the swells then came from?). They knew all details about the local weather, air and water temperatures. Some mistakes and miscalculations, which did lead into this, are quite obvious. Anyhow, both paddlers did what they could, as long as they could. The remaining kayak was left into the open to the shoreline so it was clearly visible and Rappe's friend tied his hands to the kayak when they were swimming. He did not let him go: 50 minutes is a long time. He did check his pulse and body temperature from several spots after they had reached the shore. He took Rappe into a windless place, warmed himself running, swam to the next island and ran to find a phone. He even calculated the passed time from his watch during the accident and rescue. And, with all respect towards the tragedy, they were not prepared for the waters. It was like a fight against an unbeatable enemy. Ari ----- > Rappe's friend, who tired to save him, answered to my e-mail. I will > continue my little investigations and report to you, after I have had > new answers. He wants to stay anonymous, as he also did in Swedish > media. Naturally, I do respect him. > > Cheers, > > Ari > >> So, 38 degrees Fahrenheit, 3+ degrees Celsius. Very cold water. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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