I want to thank everyone for your timely replies.I think I've tapped into a pretty rich and strong vein of knowledge. I'll be following up on my SOF enquires in the near future. Thanks Gordin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Short answer is "pretty well" - folks have had multiple instances of rough water experience in SOF's. See www.qajaqusa.org for more info. I believe folks have built SOF's with waterproof forward and aft compartments, and hatches - see same site above. Chris Duff's Romany Explorer didn't survive the sort of punishment he put it through on the trip around South Island - I've seen the pictures - he spent several days stranded on the beach before getting picked up - the boat was repaired and he finished the trip - same could have been done with an SOF. I am not saying SOFs are super boats - just that SOFs are surprisingly (to us) rugged, lightwieght and adaptable. They also come in multiple shapes and sizes - heck, Brian Schultz replicated one of Matt Broze's designs (Coaster) in SOF. Keith -- NDK Romany Explorer, red over white NDK Romany, green over white Using skinny sticks -- 'cause they're so much fun Think folks should use whatever makes them smile -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Gordin Warner <gwarner2_at_shaw.ca> > Just how tough are SOF kayaks? > > How well would they stand up to an emergency landing on a dumping surf beach? > Could they survive more then one dumping surf landing? > > What's the best skin to use if you want to paddle a SOF in the rock gardens? > > Can you build a SOF with water proof forward and aft compartments as Doug > seems to imply he'd like to do? > > Would not ridgid bulkheads thwart the whole flexible aspects of a SOF? > > I ask these questions out of ignorance I'm not trying to start a month long > arguement over the merits of SOF. In fact I've considered a SOF for a trip > I'd like to make to a remote area. Howeer, I'd like to know if such boat can > take the sort of punishment for example that Chris Duff's NDK went through > down in New Zealand. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
kattenbo_at_comcast.net wrote: > I am not saying SOFs are super boats - just that SOFs are surprisingly > (to us) rugged, lightwieght and adaptable. They also come in multiple > shapes and sizes - heck, Brian Schultz replicated one of Matt Broze's > designs (Coaster) in SOF. Here's an outrageously brave attempt to take SOF construction into the surf kayak zone: http://tinyurl.com/26hqv2 The builder is searching for ideas on how to maintain good skin contact to the frame in areas of aggressive concavity. This is up near you, Doug; one of Mick Allen's brainstorms. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gordon, all, Keith is correct. Resilient compression frames with hearty skins. I regularly drop my SOF for classes to demo their toughness. I do not baby my kayaks. I use 16 oz polyester for most of my boats and it stands up over time. I have run them up some pretty stony beaches, and done more than several surf endos in 'em. Remember that the skin gives on impact... Others use as light as 8 oz nylon. Few difficulties. I currently have a SOF with aircraft weight dacron on it that I am trying to wear out with little success. Kudos to Ms Pivovar ;-) Bulkheads need not be rigid. My friend Pavia Lumholdt has out together a how to page to set up sewn bulkheads in a SOF. He is past president of Qajaq Nuuk. http://www.paavia.dk/Bulkhead.htm I prefer custom made float bags sized to the volume of boat. Easy to make and repair. More flexibility in compartment access and storage. SOF are also fairly easy to repair if you do puncture or shred, from patch to new skin... If you want to go canvas, they are also biodegradable... Can you damage them? Sure. You can damage anything if you are careless/reckless/unlucky enough. You'd be wise not to aggravate a walrus ;-) On Apr 5, 2007, at 7:24 AM, kattenbo_at_comcast.net wrote: > Short answer is "pretty well" > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: Gordin Warner <gwarner2_at_shaw.ca> >> Just how tough are SOF kayaks? >> >> How well would they stand up to an emergency landing on a dumping >> surf beach? >> Could they survive more then one dumping surf landing? >> >> What's the best skin to use if you want to paddle a SOF in the >> rock gardens? >> >> Can you build a SOF with water proof forward and aft compartments >> as Doug >> seems to imply he'd like to do? >> >> Would not ridgid bulkheads thwart the whole flexible aspects of a >> SOF? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Turner Wilson wrote: > If you want to go canvas, they are also biodegradable... if covered with a biodegradable coating like linseed oil and talc. Alternatives to cotton canvas include hemp and linen. Both of these are stronger than cotton. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/5/2007 1:04:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, douglloyd_at_shaw.ca writes: Truth is, any kayak is subject to surf damage, especially filled with water. The Cape Falcon guys seem to put their SOF's through the surf grinder, with undue abandon. I'd hate to have a wooden hull rib break at the chine while surfing and impale my buttocks though. Harvey G, I don't think, reports structural problems in SOF surfing, though he tends to hit the back of his head on the rear deck when the waves get too big! Guess you better configure your SOF aft deck beams to anthropocentrically miss your head, rather cradling it on the softer skin part between deck beams. :-) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian Schulz (Cape Falcon Kayaks) is fun to paddle with, an energetic mind to say the least. He does beat the hell out of his boats, too. On the link below his pinky SOF (what was he thinking, really?) is juxtaposed nicely in a decent rock garden. The photos are from the PCTIKS (Pacific Coastal Traditional Inuit Kayak Symposium), many of which I took. _http://capefalconkayak.com/pctiksphotos.html_ (http://capefalconkayak.com/pctiksphotos.html) The PCTIKS event spurred much debate regarding their use in coastal waters on the qajaqusa web site. Some boaters questioned the seaworthyness in a coastal setting, raising concerns of holing the boat, crushing the frame, etc. Even some died in the wool SOF'ers would not bring theirs as it elevated the risk a bit much, in their opinion. Personally, I don't agree with the dissenters that only a hardshell boat with bulkheads and hatches meets ocean paddling seaworthyness standards. I've done most of my best trips in a Khatsalano, a different animal I know, but is more SOF like than my NDK Romany HV. It has proven to be a very durable boat. The link below is a story I posted on another board. Good pics of one of Brian's boat designs. _http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/osa_peninsula/art_osa_pen.htm_ (http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/osa_peninsula/art_osa_pen.htm) The focus then turned into a what features your boat needs to have discussion. A deck line we can tow you from, serious floatation and design one could handle. Brian made a group buy of Corey Freedman's extra long float bags and those without good floatation bought them there. Everyone survived. My point: SOF's are very tough. Do they have vulnerabilites? Don't we all. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for the link Rob. I enjoyed the story. I can imagine the keen juxtaposition of dealing with dumping surf in a world class surf break area, then paddling the relative serenity of the river upstream. Folks might enjoy Brian's story of the same trip: >http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.capefalconkayak.com/7w-arch -at-cabo-matapalo.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.capefalconkayak.com/costarica.html &h=333&w=500&sz=35&hl=en&start=65&um=1&tbnid=4OR_QLZ47qzEUM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=130 &prev=/images%3Fq%3DCabo%2BMatapalo%26start%3D60%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26u m%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN< Best to you over the long weekend. Do they make chocolate covered kayaks? Doug L Brian Schulz (Cape Falcon Kayaks) is fun to paddle with, an energetic mind to say the least. He does beat the hell out of his boats, too. On the link below his pinky SOF (what was he thinking, really?) is juxtaposed nicely in a decent rock garden. The photos are from the PCTIKS (Pacific Coastal Traditional Inuit Kayak Symposium), many of which I took. http://capefalconkayak.com/pctiksphotos.html The PCTIKS event spurred much debate regarding their use in coastal waters on the qajaqusa web site. Some boaters questioned the seaworthyness in a coastal setting, raising concerns of holing the boat, crushing the frame, etc. Even some died in the wool SOF'ers would not bring theirs as it elevated the risk a bit much, in their opinion. Personally, I don't agree with the dissenters that only a hardshell boat with bulkheads and hatches meets ocean paddling seaworthyness standards. I've done most of my best trips in a Khatsalano, a different animal I know, but is more SOF like than my NDK Romany HV. It has proven to be a very durable boat. The link below is a story I posted on another board. Good pics of one of Brian's boat designs. http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/osa_peninsula/art_osa_pen.htm The focus then turned into a what features your boat needs to have discussion. A deck line we can tow you from, serious floatation and design one could handle. Brian made a group buy of Corey Freedman's extra long float bags and those without good floatation bought them there. Everyone survived. My point: SOF's are very tough. Do they have vulnerabilites? Don't we all. Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob, If I can jump in here on your response to Doug... Thanks for the post. Truth is I've been mulling this SOF thing over for a long time. In fact I almost took Michael Jackson's place in a SOF class with Cape Falcon. My wife convinced me to go to New York City instead so I never followed up on the SOF opportunity. I'm going to get in touch with Brian. I think we'll have a lot to talk about. SOF and Hawaii! Gordin ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rcgibbert_at_aol.com> > > Brian Schulz (Cape Falcon Kayaks) is fun to paddle with, an energetic mind > to say the least. He does beat the hell out of his boats, too. On the link > below his pinky SOF (what was he thinking, really?) is juxtaposed nicely > in a decent rock garden. The photos are from the PCTIKS (Pacific Coastal > Traditional Inuit Kayak Symposium), many of which I took. > > _http://capefalconkayak.com/pctiksphotos.html_ > (http://capefalconkayak.com/pctiksphotos.html) > > The PCTIKS event spurred much debate regarding their use in coastal waters > on the qajaqusa web site. Some boaters questioned the seaworthyness in a > coastal setting, raising concerns of holing the boat, crushing the frame, > etc. Even some died in the wool SOF'ers would not bring theirs as it elevated > the risk a bit much, in their opinion. Personally, I don't agree with the > dissenters that only a hardshell boat with bulkheads and hatches meets ocean paddling > seaworthyness standards. I've done most of my best trips in a Khatsalano, > a > different animal I know, but is more SOF like than my NDK Romany HV. It > has > proven to be a very durable boat. The link below is a story I posted on > another > board. Good pics of one of Brian's boat designs. > > _http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/osa_peninsula/art_osa_pen.htm_ > (http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/osa_peninsula/art_osa_pen.htm) > > The focus then turned into a what features your boat needs to have > discussion. A deck line we can tow you from, serious floatation and design > one could > handle. Brian made a group buy of Corey Freedman's extra long float bags > and > those without good floatation bought them there. Everyone survived. > > My point: SOF's are very tough. Do they have vulnerabilites? Don't we > all. > > Cheers, > > Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Keith wrote: >>>>>>I am not saying SOFs are super boats - just that SOFs are surprisingly (to us) rugged, lightwieght and adaptable. They also come in multiple shapes and sizes - heck, Brian Schultz replicated one of Matt Broze's designs (Coaster) in SOF.<<<<<< A few inaccuracies here. My brother Cam is the designer of the Coaster (and Robert Livingston of Paddlewise and flex/pump/leak fame is its godfather). Brian, with our permission, attempted to replicate the Coaster (and before it the Elan) as a SOF kayak. While there is a strong similarity and Brian was attempting a replication, Brian would admit they are still far from being the same. Certainly his SOF kayak is not a replicant of the Coaster. SOF kayaks are a whole lot tougher than they look. They can take quite a beating but their greatest vulnerability is to sharp objects. To try to overcome the "I'd be afraid to use it on the water" syndrome among observers, Corey Freedman, owner of Spirit Line Kayaks, used to take a heavy Greenland style paddle and viciously beat on his demo Baidarkas to prove how well they could stand up to a beating. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] From: Harvey Golden <harveydgolden_at_yahoo.com> > Rigid bulkheads wouldn't work at all-- they'd fail very quickly. > Pavia Lumholt (a Greenlander) has devised a method for adding > cloth bulkeads that seems to work extremely well and is quite easy to make. > Photo-instructions at the link below: > http://www.paavia.dk/Bulkhead.htm Also note in the last picture that there is a hatch installed for the rear compartment. Pretty kewl. Keith -- NDK Romany Explorer, red over white NDK Romany, green over white Using skinny sticks -- 'cause they're so much fun Think folks should use whatever makes them smile *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] Matt - thanks for the corrections - no slight to Cam was intended, I guess I should have said "attempted to replicate" - from the pictures the result looks very close, but is certainly not an exact duplicate. Keith -- NDK Romany Explorer, red over white Using skinny sticks -- 'cause they're so much fun Think folks should use whatever makes them smile -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > Keith wrote: > > >>>>>>I am not saying SOFs are super boats - just that SOFs are surprisingly > (to us) rugged, lightwieght and adaptable. They also come in multiple > shapes and sizes - heck, Brian Schultz replicated one of Matt Broze's > designs (Coaster) in SOF.<<<<<< > > A few inaccuracies here. My brother Cam is the designer of the Coaster (and > Robert Livingston of Paddlewise and flex/pump/leak fame is its godfather). > Brian, with our permission, attempted to replicate the Coaster (and before > it the Elan) as a SOF kayak. While there is a strong similarity and Brian > was attempting a replication, Brian would admit they are still far from > being the same. Certainly his SOF kayak is not a replicant of the Coaster. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gordin Warner wrote: > I'll be following up on my SOF enquires in the near future. The best place for these enquiries would be Qajaq USA's forum. That is where the SOF enthusiasts are concentrated. The archives there can probably provide many if not most of your answers and would avoid duplication of effort on Paddlewise. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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