Matt wrote; > Please show me point by point why I am wrong or > being illogical. I did this in my post of 6/25/2007 where I asked for answers to questions that Matt may have not considered. Specious means: apparently right or proper : superficially fair, just, or correct but not so in reality : appearing well at first view. (Merriam Webster Unabridged Dictionary) Item 1) You concluded that there was less fatigue when not using rudders. It sounded excellent but contained no objective support just your opinion but was stated as if it were a fact. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt by treating it as specious logic rather than a deliberate attempt to falsely state as factual what is just opinion. Item 2) You comment on an injury giving the impression that rudders cause injury when in fact, the problem was with the builder. This sounds good. One reads it and says, "Yes, I have seen those bare wires." It sounds good but is false logic That builders build poorly is not a condemnation of rudders it is a condemnation of builders. Item 5) You comment on maintenance and use the words "far more". In so doing you suggest a quantity that sounds serious without explaining why it is a problem. Do paddlers not have time to maintain their boats? Can they not learn how? If they are unwilling to learn is it the rudder's fault? The comments sounded good and to the reader might make sense but they are only superficial. Item 8) You comment on slower turns and it sounds good coming from someone of your expertise but you neglected to mention that one is not obligated to use the rudder for all turns or even any turns. Your comment sounds good but it neglects the many other options available to the person using a rudder to augment his abilities. Item 9) You discuss slower spins. See above. Are spins even an issue for all paddlers or even most paddler? It sounds important coming from you but is it really? To conclude that it is requires some support or it is simply specious. Item 13) You comment on rudders flopping from side to side when backing up. Once again, coming from you this sounds important but is it? It may be to some people but to how many? How often? Item 15) You comment on the time delay in getting rudders to operate as if this is a failing suggesting that people using their paddles do not have the same problem or even how much delay is important. All despite many comments here from people telling how they use the rudder to adjust directional trim where time delay is of no consequence. Once again, coming from you your comments sounds impressive and convincing. When Matt writes something it always sounds good as he writes well and he writes convincingly. People are likely to accept what he says thinking there is more to it than just his opinion or that it is based on verifiable testing. By verifiable I mean that anyone can perform the same test and get the same results. If the test aren't verifiable one has to ask, "How valuable is this tests if only Matt can do them?" Is Matt the paddling standard? I don't Matt thinks so. Matt has done a lot of testing and I think it is interesting stuff. However, one has to look at it critically. What has he missed? What is he measuring? Is the same for all paddlers or just for Matt? We are flooded with claims these days that have proven specious. Claims for the value of drugs, safety devices, teaching techniques, strength etc. etch. etc. We should always be asking questions. If you will note my post of 6/25/2007 you will note that I asked a lot of questions for which I have gotten no answers. Matt wants answers. So do I. If paddling without a rudder uses less energy (and it may) then were is the data? Did Matt do tank testing of heeled kayaks to see how much added resistance heeling caused? I haven't seen it. Failings of Sea Kayaker rudder tests. 1. No data on the shape parameters I.E. aspect ratio, section shape, area, surface condition, edge shapes. This is poor practice. Without knowing what was tested one cannot determine the value of the tests. All we get are your claims that rudders can cause 10% greater drag. Does it apply to all rudders, some rudders, only one rudder? 2. No comparison between the resistance tests and that of calculated values. For example flat plate drag is easily calculated (see Hoerner "Fluid Drag" or most any text on fluid drag) and yet this was not done to determine if there might have been test anomalies.. 3. If I recall correctly you once wrote that the rudder was allowed to move freely. This is poor test practice unless the rudder is allowed to move freely in use and is not controlled. 4. Insufficient number of tests over a full range of speeds. You will recall they tested the boats over a wider range of speeds. Why no the rudder over a wider range of speeds. We paddle over a wide range of speeds. 5. Lack of comparative tests to determine of the rudder was properly sized for the job. If the rudder was too large for the job then it has little meaning to people using properly sized rudders. Actually I think I have written all this before on either Paddlewise or Wavelength. Craig wrote about empiricism. Empiricism is good stuff unless you are quantifying data. The issues here often have to do with quantification. See "Perceived Exertion" by Noble and Robertson to learn about human failings in detecting and quantifying effort. Imagine this. You are in the butcher shop and say you want 10 pounds of prime Black Angus beef. The butcher takes a piece of beef , throws it on the counter, wraps it and asks for your credit card. You are indignant. "Aren't you going to weight it. How do I know it weighs ten pounds?" The butcher replies, "I been cutting beef for forty years. I know ten pounds when I pick it up." Are you will to accept this and pay up? Think about this for anything that involves measurements for any force. If so, I have some light weight kayaks to sell you. :-) Measurements keep us honest but they also keep us from being mistaken. Cheers John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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