Craig wrote; > Oh, please. If it were easy to do then someone would be doing it now. Why? >The > problems revolve around the variables; not finding someone who > "understands > fluid dynamics" or "test procedures". Objectively testing for all > variables > is impossible. So it is better to rely on opinion because you can't figure out a way to do it? Would you do it in a test tank? Ship designers do it. > Caffyn recorded a nearly-33% increase in daily mileage with a rudder > compared to no rudder. Are Caffyn's results applicable to all boats and all paddlers? > If you don't agree with it, then provide some data (not test parameters) > to > refute it. I made no claims. I don't have to prove anything to question the validity of someone's claims and their lack of proof. Cheers John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7/2/07, John Winters <jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca> wrote: > So it is better to rely on opinion because you can't figure out a way to > do > it? Are you now saying that Caffyn's data is opinion? I think that the only "opinion" here is yours, not his. Would you do it in a test tank? Ship designers do it. Once again you're throwing out a straw-man argument hoping to detour us into a different argument. This debate is about whether data recorded concerning miles traveled per day over many days is valid. I say that it is valid empirical evidence collected by an expert in the field. You say it's "anecdotal". You demanded Matt provide details to support his statements. I'm asking you to do the same. Just how, exactly, is Caffyn's data anecdotal? Why is it not valid? You keep throwing up detours. > > Caffyn recorded a nearly-33% increase in daily mileage with a rudder > > compared to no rudder. > > Are Caffyn's results applicable to all boats and all paddlers? Again, a detour. No one here has alleged that Caffyn's data is applicable to all boats or all paddlers. Or even under all conditions. I'm saying that his data is valid; not "opinion". Caffyn himself refers to statistics based upon his data. On what basis are you challenging it? > If you don't agree with it, then provide some data (not test parameters) > > to refute it. > > I made no claims. I don't have to prove anything to question the validity > of > someone's claims and their lack of proof. > Not unless you want some shred of credibility left, I guess. As a "professional" kayak designer you have some responsibility to not throw doubt upon someone's reputation without backing it up. You said that Caffyn's data is "anecdotal evidence", a "story" and, now, "opinion" with nothing but your own opinions to present as evidence for your side. And now you throw around another technical term. People who aren't technical often use the words "proof" and "evidence" as if they meant the same thing. Scientists and engineers know that this is far from the case. There is very little in science that is "proof" and few technicians will throw that term around lightly. You should know, as a professional, that Caffyn doesn't need "proof". His data stands by itself. Show us where it's wrong. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jul 2, 2007, at 12:47 PM, Craig Jungers wrote: > On 7/2/07, John Winters <jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca> wrote: > >> So it is better to rely on opinion because you can't figure out a >> way to >> do >> it? > > > Are you now saying that Caffyn's data is opinion? I think that the > only > "opinion" here is yours, not his. Data is not interchangeable with conclusions. The data is probably accurate but it is not complete. The opinion comes in when drawing conclusion from the data. Caffyn feels that the data is solely a result of his rudder, and that he can extend his conclusions to all kayaks. Those conclusions are not supported by the data. Other factors may have contributed to the differences in his two trips, and his experience may not be typical of other boats, paddlers and conditions. This does not question the data, only the conclusions. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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