G'day, Have to say that I'm in despair of ever getting my question answered. All I wanted to know was how much it costs to build a kayak when you take out the very important and worthwhile costs of labour and profit. That way I reckon I can estimate my green house offset and pay it because I want to not because I think anyone else should. My best estimate is that the non labour non profit cost is about Aus$1,000 on a commercial fiber glass or plastic kayak and the consequent carbon offset would cost $88 at current market prices. It would have been nice to get a closer figure but thats the best I can manage given the lack of any real information. I truly think the discussion should be closed unless anyone has actual information on costs. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tony wrote: >....the last one I built was smaller, 17X21 low volume >and I used leftover fiberglass and epoxy for that one so >it was about $150 for the wood and fittings etc.......The >total for the 3 kayaks I built is $1250. divide that by >3 and you get about $420(US)..... G'Day Tony, Thats an impressive workshop and they're beautiful boats! There's no way I'd dare ask you to cost the time on them even if I needed to know! The numbers you've given me are really useful but I was wondering if you could give me two more. Are you able to estimate how much the scrap wood should cost if purchased new? And do you have a rough idea of how much all the wood and resin used, including scrap, would have weighed? The weight would let me calculate a worst case end of life disposal of the boat in which it is all converted to CO2*. Though having looked at the photo's of your boats I'd say a much better end of life would be an art gallery or museum - they really did look good! * (I've always fancied a viking funeral) All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter: When I built my kayaks, I figured on about $550 (US). As it turns out, the last one I built was smaller, 17X21 low volume and I used leftover fiberglass and epoxy for that one so it was about $150 for the wood and fittings etc.. I used western red cedar which is cheap, light, looks good under glass, and readily available in my local area of Galveston Texas. The total for the 3 kayaks I built is $1250. divide that by 3 and you get about $420(US) per 'yak.' The time you put in is up to you and can vary with the amount of detail required. The most complicated one I built was the modified Great Awk (my second one). I took over 600 hours. http://www.flickr.com/photos/tonyolsen/sets/390762/ The last one I built was a Strip built Yost Sea Ranger, simple in wood detail and took less than 200 hours. http://www.flickr.com/photos/tonyolsen/sets/72057594055251040/ Sorry about this thread getting out of hand, I usually don't get involved when the discussion goes astray. Must have been a moment of weakness and lack of recent kayaking. . Hope this helps in your quest. Feel free to email me on or off list if you need any clarifications. Tony Olsen *snip* > It would have been nice to get a closer figure but thats the best I can > manage given the lack of any real information. > *snip* > http://kayakbytes.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/7/2007 1:49:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com writes: Have to say that I'm in despair of ever getting my question answered. All I wanted to know was how much it costs to build a kayak when you take out the very important and worthwhile costs of labour and profit. That way I reckon I can estimate my green house offset and pay it because I want to not because I think anyone else should. My best estimate is that the non labour non profit cost is about Aus$1,000 on a commercial fiber glass or plastic kayak and the consequent carbon offset would cost $88 at current market prices. It would have been nice to get a closer figure but thats the best I can manage given the lack of any real information. I truly think the discussion should be closed unless anyone has actual information on costs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peter, with all due respect, but you can't be serious, can you? Is the Carbon Offset Super Hero that you pay these so called "offsets" going to swoop out of the sky and say: "Ah ha, I'm Carbon Offsets Man! I've come all the way from Nashville, Tennesee to wage war with you, evil Carbon man!" Build your kayak in peace. The war that required you, with your unique talents and spirit can't be fought with some bum you paid to be there instead. Another sinner cannot be given a new shopping cart because you paid the Bishop for absolution. Build your kayak in peace and don't let these slicksters sell you "offsets" so you can give them money to make you feel less guilty. That is a medicine wagon show if I've ever seen one. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com writes: >Have to say that I'm in despair of ever getting my question answered. All I wanted to know was how much it costs to build a kayak when you take out the very important and worthwhile costs of labour and profit. That way I reckon I can estimate my green house offset and pay it because I want to not because I think anyone else should... It would have been nice to get a closer figure but thats the best I can manage given the lack of any real information. This is a slightly different question than what you asked in the first place. I can think to two ways to do this: most large item retail gross margins are about 33 percent of retail price, ditto the manufacturer's mark-up. For most manufactured goods labor and material costs are about half and half. for example a $1500 retail kayak should have cost the retailer about $1000, and cost the manufacturer to build it about $660. Half of that is direct labor cost, half direct material costs, or about $300-330 each. Removing the material suppliers overhead and profit, you might be looking at about $200 worth of raw materials at cost. This varies for many products and industries, some items are more labor intensive to make, some more material intensive, but for a rough guess this should be close. of course the different type of materials that kayaks are built from may have a different "carbon cost". For example propane and gasoline roughly cost the same, but propane has about half the carbon dioxide output for the same amount of combustion for each of the fuels. I imagine there might be something similar with fiberglass/polyester resin, polyethylene, carbon graphite/epoxy resin, and the various other materials used in kayak building. A review of the chemical composition of what ever your kayak is made from will tell you the carbon content of the material. The other way to is simply weigh the kayak and then make an estimate of the percentage of how much each of the components contribute to that weight, and then look-up the whole sale cost for each of the raw materials. I think Matt Broze might be able to give you a fairly accurate estimate of the raw material costs that go into his kayaks. Good luck, Peter C *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Chopelas wrote: > of course the different type of materials that kayaks are built from may > have a different "carbon cost". For example propane and gasoline > roughly cost the same, but propane has about half the carbon dioxide > output for the same amount of combustion for each of the fuels. I > imagine there might be something similar with fiberglass/polyester > resin, polyethylene, carbon graphite/epoxy resin, and the various other > materials used in kayak building. A review of the chemical composition > of what ever your kayak is made from will tell you the carbon content of > the material. Sorry, PeterO, I can not help you with the task at hand, although PeterC's point above may suggest a mechanism. In fact, some items may have a "negative" carbon cost, if you do the accounting based on their impact on NET global CO2. For example, if you were to grow a cellulosic fiber out of the ground using photosynthesis, and weave that fiber into a fabric that was then used in a kayak, and which never was subsequently combusted back to CO2, then you might be able to "count" the carbon in that portion of the kayak as a REDUCTION in global CO2, because it came from atmospheric CO2 that was fixed as cellulose in the plant. And, some might have a "zero" carbon cost. In fact, I suspect much of the carbon in kayaks would be of that sort. If the carbon in the resins were extracted from petroleum, with minimal modification, then __unless you subsequently burn the kayak__, the carbon in the kayak represents very little NET CO2 production, inasmuch as its carbon is more or less in the same degree of oxidation it had before manufacture. Most resins are only slightly oxidized, and polyethylene is completely void of bound oxygen, so it might turn out that rotomoulded boats are the _least_ carbon consumptive, vis a vis CO2 production. That would leave you only needing to do the accounting of the CO2 produced during manufacture, for heating, vehicle transport, etc. The bottom line, I suspect, is that __tying up__ carbon in the form of useful articles such as kayaks, __in lieu of__ burning the same carbon (as gasoline, diesel fuel, jet fuel, heating oil, etc.), prevents that carbon from contributing to global C02 and hence global warming. In a nutshell, then, it is better for you to buy another boat than it is to drive your vehicle. The best scenario: 1. Grow your own cellulosic fiber, near home; weave it into fabric. 2. Use the fabric and low-oxygen resins (epoxy and polyester resin are both relatively low in oxygen) to make your own boats. 3. Live next to the water, and hand-carry your boats to the water, avoiding vehicular travel. 4. Never "retire" your boats; recycle them and re-use them, passing them on to others. 5. (Most important of all) And, when you pass on, avoid a Viking funeral! Yours, in the service of low CO2 production. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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