Happened upon this book when looking for something at Amazon. Are these guys at Canoe and Kayak for real? "Do you know the 20/20 rule? If it is below 20 F and blows more than 20 mph stay on shore" I guess it is supposed to be funny - must be something cultural that I just don't get ... Soon we'll see the Utter Moron's book on writing, no doubt, no doubt! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tuesday 11 September 2007 09:30, you wrote: > The text does specify "below 20 F OR more than 20 MPH". Sorry! > But still.... its target is beginners... What ever should they be doing at 21 F in a canoe, or kayak?! > A beginners 20/20 rule could be European > (20 C = 68 F / 20 kmph = 13 mph ) Much better! > -- Kasper Hej Kasper! Actually it is the water temperature that should be the guide to how you dress, but 5 m/s (10 knots, close to 13 mph) seems a good rule! Something that keeps your head, hands and body warm should be compulsory, at least tilll the water has reached summer temperature, say over 20C/68F! Another intelligent information I got from the book (you can read a few sample pages at Amazon's site) was that the bow paddler sits in the front, and the stern paddler sits in the back. Enough said, Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Tord I live in Denmark. In the winter season we paddle the ocean rather than inner waters - because it is less frozen. Winter paddling is not for beginners, but is is certainly not something to refrain from. I have even capsized in racing kayaks in ice water, as has many here, and that is without dry or wetsuit, as one would overheat in such clothing. But as I said, it is not for beginners to do such things, normally we say you have to have around 1000 km in your hips to do winter paddling. Similarly, 20 mhp never kept me ashore, that is, under the implicit assumption that we are not talking ocean shore. But the page mentions "all across North America", so they are talking lakes here. Btw, my dictionary says Stern: The rearmost part of ship or boat So to me it makes some sense that the stern paddler sits in the back. But, I could easily have misunderstood something here, I am confusing right and left anyway, and clearly prefer front and back to more maritime expressions. -- Kasper On 11/09/07 11.20, "Tord Eriksson" <tord_at_tord.nu> wrote: > On Tuesday 11 September 2007 09:30, you wrote: >> The text does specify "below 20 F OR more than 20 MPH". > > Sorry! > >> But still.... its target is beginners... > > What ever should they be doing at 21 F in a canoe, or kayak?! > >> A beginners 20/20 rule could be European >> (20 C = 68 F / 20 kmph = 13 mph ) > > Much better! > >> -- Kasper > > Hej Kasper! > > > Actually it is the water temperature that should be the guide to how you > dress, but 5 m/s (10 knots, close to 13 mph) seems a good rule! Something > that keeps your head, hands and body warm should be compulsory, at least > tilll the water has reached summer temperature, say over 20C/68F! > > Another intelligent information I got from the book (you can read a few > sample pages at Amazon's site) was that the bow paddler sits in the front, > and the stern paddler sits in the back. > > Enough said, > > Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9/11/07, Kasper Osterbye <kasper_at_itu.dk> wrote: > > <snip>... I have even > capsized in racing kayaks in ice water, as has many here, and that is > without dry or wetsuit, as one would overheat in such clothing. > Hi Kasper, I'm curious about your statement about overheating in a drysuit. Everyone I know wears a drysuit - often in summer and always in winter - and I don't know of any serious overheating problems. Of course, most of my paddling is Puget Sound (Seattle) area or the west coast of Washington State. I've paddled ice water without a dry suit but I am pretty sure I'd never do it again without one. Or are you talking about racing? Wasn't there a story about a female Dutch kayak racer who died in a winter workout without drysuit (or even PFD)? Maybe I'm just not tough enough. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi <snip> I've paddled ice water without a dry suit but I am pretty sure I'd never do it again without one. Or are you talking about racing? </snip> Those circumstances where I do winter paddling without dry-suit has been for the workout, tough not in an actual race. Under such conditions I do not paddle far from shore - something like 100 feet from the shore line. And there are no tidal actions to worry about either. But there are stray waves from commercial traffic to handle. But so far, organized kayaking (clubs under Danish canoe union) have had next to no lethal accidents in the last 100 year, which I contribute to the fact that only experienced paddlers do winter paddling. Some (very very few) sea paddlers do long distance winter paddling, mostly as a training for Greenland expeditions (which are very popular as Greenland is officially part of Denmark). Here the problem is not just hyperthermia in case of capsize, but also to stay warm all day. You have to use a dry suit - and not paddle too fast :-). Best Kasper On 11/09/07 18.54, "Craig Jungers" <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > On 9/11/07, Kasper Osterbye <kasper_at_itu.dk> wrote: >> <snip>... I have even >> capsized in racing kayaks in ice water, as has many here, and that is >> without dry or wetsuit, as one would overheat in such clothing. > > Hi Kasper, > > I'm curious about your statement about overheating in a drysuit. Everyone I > know wears a drysuit - often in summer and always in winter - and I don't know > of any serious overheating problems. Of course, most of my paddling is Puget > Sound (Seattle) area or the west coast of Washington State. I've paddled ice > water without a dry suit but I am pretty sure I'd never do it again without > one. Or are you talking about racing? > > Wasn't there a story about a female Dutch kayak racer who died in a winter > workout without drysuit (or even PFD)? > > Maybe I'm just not tough enough. > > Craig Jungers > Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dear Kasper and Craig, Denmark is not so much different from the American shores in that we do not agree on everything. It was only march this year that a very experienced kayaker died on a swedish lake. His background much have been very much the same as Kaspars: young and very capable and fit. Yet he died. If I'm anything then in comparison I'm old and fat and belong to a group of peers that also enjoy paddling in the winter. We dress and equip ourselves more conservatively. The popularity of kayaking has increased a lot over the last years and we can only try to push "wisdom" to the new kayakers. I hope that not too many of them will find it sufficient to listen to Kaspar. I know that his institution (IT-University) harbours a lot of sound knowledge. It's said that a landing You can walk away from is a succesfull landing. I try to teach foresight but I'm also another type of kayaker than Kasper. I wish him a lot of fun together with succesfull landings. Best Jens Viggo Moesmand Denmark "But so far, organized kayaking (clubs under Danish canoe union) have had next to no lethal accidents in the last 100 year, which I contribute to the fact that only experienced paddlers do winter paddling. Best Kasper " On 11/09/07 18.54, "Craig Jungers" <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > On 9/11/07, Kasper Osterbye <kasper_at_itu.dk> wrote: >> <snip>... I have even >> capsized in racing kayaks in ice water, as has many here, and that is >> without dry or wetsuit, as one would overheat in such clothing. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Jens and others Yes, a young Swedish kayaker died last year doing a 2 km+ crossing in his K1 racer, with no proper clothing (as he would have sweated to death that way), in a boat with no compartments, so that it could be completely filled, with no deck lines, so there was nothing to hold onto (it was a K1). I have never ever in any way stated that is proper behavior. But accidents happen - a young and fit neighbor of mine died because she fell of her bike down a hill and her helmet caught a tree branch causing her neck to snap. She should not have been going so fast - speed killed her, or an ill designed helmet killed her, or ...) The original story here was under what conditions you go winter paddling, and I merely said that if I too had been out in the 20/20 conditions, and I did not find that to be completely bananas - just as I do not find rappelling and parachuting to be next to suicide. But doing crossings and other crazy stuff in a K1 in winter in Scandinavia is indeed dangerous. What my work life (IT University) has to do with this I cannot see. And no, I am not a young fit kayaker, I am now 45+, 200 lb, but still does a some K1 (actually most K2) as well as a lot of seakayaking (in the order of about 500 miles/year total in both types of boats). Safety is a difficult one, there are several factors going into this, the most common ones mentioned are: personal experience, local experience, wind, water temperature, wave conditions (current, harbors, boats,...), group size, boat (I do judge differently in my seakayak and my K1). The precautions necessary for cold-water paddling in the open waters of the ost-sea, and ours in at in inland lake or fjord are very different. The Swedish paddler knew his boat, his waters, he was not alone, he had been doing this trip N times before (as had my neighbor). As a kayak club member I expect you know all these factors in and out as do I. Happy paddling, Kasper On 10/10/07 13.15, Jens Viggo Moesmand <jensviggo_at_moesmand.dk> wrote: > Dear Kasper and Craig, > > Denmark is not so much different from the American shores in that we do > not agree on everything. > It was only march this year that a very experienced kayaker died on a > swedish lake. His background much have been very much the same as > Kaspars: young and very capable and fit. Yet he died. > If I'm anything then in comparison I'm old and fat and belong to a group > of peers that also enjoy paddling in the winter. We dress and equip > ourselves more conservatively. > The popularity of kayaking has increased a lot over the last years and > we can only try to push "wisdom" to the new kayakers. I hope that not > too many of them will find it sufficient to listen to Kaspar. I know > that his institution (IT-University) harbours a lot of sound knowledge. > It's said that a landing You can walk away from is a succesfull landing. > I try to teach foresight but I'm also another type of kayaker than > Kasper. I wish him a lot of fun together with succesfull landings. > > Best > > Jens Viggo Moesmand > Denmark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tord wrote: > What ever should they be doing at 21 F in a canoe, or kayak?! I've rolled at 8 degrees F -- in fresh water. On New Year's Day, it's a tradition for the Inland Sea Kayakers and others to paddle on the Mississippi River below the Ford Dam. The biggest hazard, aside from cold water, is usually waterskiers, but at 8 degrees, ice accumulation also becomes an interesting problem. If December was cold enough, you might be so fortunate as to have cakes of ice floating down the river that you can paddle up on top of and ride for a while. I call it "going with the floe." Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Another intelligent information I got from the book > (you can read a few > sample pages at Amazon's site) was that the bow > paddler sits in the front, > and the stern paddler sits in the back. Before I add this book to my library, I'd like to know if it has any information as to which directions the stern and bow paddler are supposed to face once they are in the kayak. Harvey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Before I add this book to my library, I'd like to know > if it has any information as to which directions the > stern and bow paddler are supposed to face once they > are in the kayak. > Harvey > Questions that must be asked before an answer can be issued: 1. Is there a following wind? 2. Are you paddling with your spouse? 3. Is the sea state greater than 7? 4. Which hemisphere are you in? This relates to potential direction (clockwise, anti-clockwise) of paddle sweep when attempting to roll back up in case of capsize. If the paddling pair happen to be in different hemispheres at the same time due to a capsize at the exact second of transiting the Prime Meridian then the judges will have to be consulted. See appendix C. If GPs are being used see appendix F. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doesn't that depend on which way they want to go? If you'd stop building kayaks with those round cockpits, it might be easier to tell. Harvey Golden wrote: > Before I add this book to my library, I'd like to know > if it has any information as to which directions the > stern and bow paddler are supposed to face once they > are in the kayak. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Face down... because before I'd get in any boat run by people who read/wrote this book I'd have to be drunk. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA On 9/11/07, Harvey Golden <harveydgolden_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Another intelligent information I got from the book > > (you can read a few > > sample pages at Amazon's site) was that the bow > > paddler sits in the front, > > and the stern paddler sits in the back. > > Before I add this book to my library, I'd like to know > if it has any information as to which directions the > stern and bow paddler are supposed to face once they > are in the kayak. > Harvey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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