Lots of generalizations here to follow. To me, the defining characteristics of a good ocean surf boat are loads of bow rocker and volume, relatively flat bottom and rails. Rails begin at the edge of the bottom and form a lip as they transition into the deck. A well designed surf kayak has plentiful rail to help you carve into the water across the wave. I have never come even close to the speeds I can achieve in my surf boat with a whitewater kayak on ocean waves. However, that really only means the designs of whitewater boats I've actually paddled or sized up by eye. Bow rocker and volume helps with taking off from the wave and getting out onto the green. International Class boats tend to have less bow rocker as their length and speed enables them to take off earlier. True IC boats do not have fins that help define High Performance surf kayaks. Those fins also help track across the wave. I can optimize my fin locations given the conditions of the day, though to my skill level it is more guess work than knowing precisely what I'm doing. There is little stern rocker in most surf kayak designs. The stern shape can be quite different though. Mine, a Mega Impulse, has a larger stern intended to maximize wave energy. Shallower sterns are said to cut turns more quickly. I have surfed sea whitewater boats for years and now having a true surf boat, couldn't imagine intentionally taking a whitewater boat to the beach to surf it. If a whitewater boats had the aggressive rail design of a surf boat it may have problems in the river. Edgier boats can get hung up easily in rocks, slides, and sharp hydraulics. That said, Fluid Kayaks has an interesting new play boat design that is said to surf ocean waves extremely well. One thing I would not do with whitewater boat designs and designers is try to put hard and fast rules on them as they are breaking barriers in performance frequently. Pro surfers will tell you they appreciate the lighter weight of the composite surf designs for edge to edge transitions. I tend to agree, even with my simple background. For what it is worth, I don't even blink about adding a new boat to the fleet.Creek boats and play boats, surf boats and sea kayaks all have their place. Playful sea boats and gear haulers, folders, traditional skin on frame and slalom boats. Can we ever have enough? The answer is no. We need the ones designed well enough for what we want out of paddling. If it was me, and I wanted to maximize my joy of surfing ocean waves, I'd get a surf boat. Not only that, it keeps the hardware on my river boats from getting all rusty. Cheers, Rob G In a message dated 9/24/2007 7:01:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, crjungers_at_gmail.com writes: You are facing the same dilemma I was facing when I posted about a "sea kayak playboat" a year or so ago. I really don't think that there is anything that will cover both a w/w playboat and an ocean surfer although probably the Zip by Necky would come close except when you have to paddle a ways to get out or to the surf zone. I think that it's inescapable that you'll end up with two kayaks (at least) for ocean surf and for river play. You should realize that most w/w paddlers have more than one boat just for rivers; I have 3. My wife sold her sit-on-top w/w kayak but I thought it was a POS anyway. She thinks I should sell the rest but I'm having a problem with that. So, having no luck at finding a sea-kayak playboat I bought a Mariner Express with the idea that its relatively small size (and no dangling bits like rudders) it would serve for close coastal and rock gardens. So far it's been a real joy but I've never had it in ocean surf. Several Paddlewisers have though so maybe they could comment. I don't believe an Express would be suitable on rivers though; for one thing it's 16-feet long and it's fiberglass and my recollection of fiberglass w/w boats is that they end up in pieces after one season. The Mariner Coaster, at about 13 feet, has a reputation as a very good ocean playboat for surfing and rock gardens. I've put one on my wish-list but, again, I don't think it would make a good river playboat even in graphite/kevlar form. Mariner will happily build either of these for you since they are now back in the kayak biz. Go to www.marinerkayaks.com for the link. In the UK there is a kayak called the "Rockhopper" (http://www.teksport.co.uk/rockhopper_kayaks.htm) that looks as if it would make a very good playboat for tidal races and rock gardens. It has an adjustable skeg to help get you to the playspot and looks more like what I would think a sea kayaking playboat would. It's not cheap to buy and with the US dollar equal to 2 British pounds it's even pricier. Plus you have to get it here; I don't know of a US distributor. I talked to a paddler at Deception Pass who has paddled the Rockhopper and he was enthusastic. Still, I would rather have a "real" w/w boat on a river. If I were still doing w/w my choice would be one of the Jackson boats (maybe the Super Hero since I'm a pretty big guy) for rivers and for ocean play I would be looking hard at a Mariner Coaster. Right now I'm pretty happy with the Express since it's a 7-hour drive to the ocean but only 2.5 hrs to Puget Sound so rock gardens are pretty tame within a day-drive. Rob Gibbert would have good insights on this, I think, since he still does both ocean surf and w/w rivers. I'm sure that Chuck Holst (forgive me if I've misremembered your name Chuck) would also have valuable input. Good luck, Craig Jungers Royal City, WA ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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