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From: Scott Hilliard <kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Are Sea Kayaks Seaworthy?
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 16:06:15 -0700
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From: Melissa Reese <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Are Sea Kayaks Seaworthy?
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 21:12:55 -0700
Hi Scott,

On Friday, October 26, 2007, at 4:06:15 PM PST, you wrote:

> Are Sea Kayaks Seaworthy?

My friend Lisa in a sea kayak on the sea: Not necessarily seaworthy

Me in a sea kayak on the sea: At least I'm still alive (knock on wood)

Sea kayak on the sea with no paddler: It will probably float

No matter how we define "seaworthy", I do find it worthwhile to paddle
my sea kayak on the sea. Does that count? :-)

Definition of "on the sea", for me: Though I harbor no delusions of
paddling non-stop from here to Hawaii, I do paddle coastal waters up
to a few miles offshore. My sea kayaks have always carried me with
security and grace (even if not with complete dignity at all times,
due to the "stupid paddler" variable). I suppose that's seaworthy
enough for my porpoises. :-)

-- 
Melissa
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From: Harvey Golden <harveydgolden_at_yahoo.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Are Sea Kayaks Seaworthy?
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 22:13:45 -0700 (PDT)
Kayaks are worthy of the sea, but no, they are not
inherently "seaworthy."
Just one opinion...
Harvey Golden
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Are Sea Kayaks Seaworthy?
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:33:55 -0700
On 10/26/07, Harvey Golden <harveydgolden_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Kayaks are worthy of the sea, but no, they are not
> inherently "seaworthy."
> Just one opinion...
> Harvey Golden



Since almost all kayaks populated with a paddler are in their most stable
position when inverted, I agree with Harvey.

However, almost all empty kayaks seem pretty seaworthy. Over and over
rescuers find empty kayaks floating just fine. So the kayaks themselves seem
pretty seaworthy while a kayak on the ocean with a paddler in it is probably
dangerous as all get-out.

Melissa alluded to the answer, I think. More than almost any other
ocean-going vessel, the seaworthiness of a kayak depends on the skills and
judgement of the operator.

And that's worth remembering.

Craig Jungers
Moses Lake, WA
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Are Sea Kayaks Seaworthy?
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 12:09:04 -0700
Craig Jungers wrote:

> Melissa alluded to the answer, I think. More than almost any other 
> ocean-going vessel, the seaworthiness of a kayak depends on the skills
> and judgment of the operator.

And the stamina.  When we wear out, we are toast, in rough conditions, 
perhaps not so much if equipped with one of the various 
stability-enhancement devices (aka sp*ns*ns).

There is widespread, deep ignorance among non-paddlers about the virtues of 
a kayak, however.  My power boating buddies always harass me about "that 
tippy little boat," but when things get really gnarly on the Columbia, I 
can make way with a greater reserve of safety than they can in their 
square-transomed, power-trim-tab-stabilized, over-powered, over-loaded 
gasoline hogs.

And then there's surf:  try to deal with a 15-20 ft power boat in 
three-four feet of water in the impact zone.  They just do not side-surf well!

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Scott Hilliard <kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Are Sea Kayaks Seaworthy?
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:44:21 -0700
   I don't know what happened to the text in my last e-mail, but let's 
try this again.

   Are these people related to Timmy? :-)

http://www.wavewalk.com/KAYAK%20SEAWORTHINESS.html

Scott
So.Cal.
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From: Melissa Reese <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Are Sea Kayaks Seaworthy?
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:25:20 -0700
Hi Scott,

On Saturday, October 27, 2007, at 11:44:21 AM PST, you wrote:

>    Are these people related to Timmy? :-)

> http://www.wavewalk.com/KAYAK%20SEAWORTHINESS.html

I hope John Winters will chime in here and let us know how he feels
about being used as he was for "making the case" in this Timmyesque
sales pitch.

In any event, I'm sure Uncle Timmy would be proud! :-)

-- 
Melissa
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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Are Sea Kayaks Seaworthy?
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:54:57 -0700
Melissa Reese wrote:

[Re: http://www.wavewalk.com/KAYAK%20SEAWORTHINESS.html ]

> I hope John Winters will chime in here and let us know how he feels
> about being used as he was for "making the case" in this Timmyesque
> sales pitch.

My exact reaction, also.  The odour of scam permeated.

The pitch focuses on the extraordinary initial stability of the WWalker, 
and not at all on the fact that it would be more stable inverted, with the 
rider/paddler also inverted.  And, in surf?  Forget it.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: James Farrelly <JFarrelly5_at_comcast.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Are Sea Kayaks Seaworthy?
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 18:55:12 -0400
I am most stable with a paddlefloat  around my feet and a dozen  
horseshoes around my neck.

Jim et al
>
> The pitch focuses on the extraordinary initial stability of the  
> WWalker, and not at all on the fact that it would be more stable  
> inverted, with the rider/paddler also inverted.  And, in surf?   
> Forget it.
>
> -- 
> Dave Kruger
> Astoria, OR
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From: Melissa Reese <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Are Sea Kayaks Seaworthy?
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 02:41:34 -0700
Hi Jim,

On Saturday, October 27, 2007, at 3:55:12 PM PST, you wrote:

> I am most stable with a paddlefloat around my feet and a dozen
> horseshoes around my neck.

Sea Anchor is a noble vocation. I just hope that your boat is tethered
to the paddle float, as it would be a shame to waste such a dedicated
quest for stability! :-)

-- 
Melissa
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From: Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Are Sea Kayaks Seaworthy?
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 08:59:48 -0400
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:44:21 -0700, "Scott Hilliard"
<kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net> said:

>    Are these people related to Timmy? :-)
> 
> http://www.wavewalk.com/KAYAK%20SEAWORTHINESS.html


For what I see as the target market, fishing and placid stream
exploration, I think the wavewalk boat is a better design than most of
big open cockpit recreational boats.  The boat does have 6 rod holder
mounting locations for the avid fisherman....  The 274 cm paddle would
take some getting used to.  There might be just a little hyperbole in
some of their promotion...

Rescuing the boat when it goes over could be a real challenge, either as
a self or assisted rescue.

For the waves that I was playing in yesterday I expect it would have
been quickly inverted.  

I understand in the sailing community the multihull designers/owners are
looked at as a bit of a crazy offshoot of sailing.  I think the
waterwalker is out in the same fringe.  

Locally we have a sailing multihull designer who is now building sea
kayaks.  He's brought some of his out of the box thought to his boats
http://www.warrenlightcraft.com/  Rumor has it he's also working on a
multihull "kayak", possibly a trimaran.

Kirk


-- 
  Kirk Olsen
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From: Melissa Reese <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Are Sea Kayaks Seaworthy?
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 10:16:57 -0700
Hi Kirk,

On Sunday, October 28, 2007, at 5:59:48 AM PST, you wrote:

> For what I see as the target market, fishing and placid stream
> exploration, I think the wavewalk boat is a better design than most
> of big open cockpit recreational boats. The boat does have 6 rod
> holder mounting locations for the avid fisherman.... The 274 cm
> paddle would take some getting used to. There might be just a little
> hyperbole in some of their promotion...

In about an hour, I'll be launching my death-trap sea kayak into the
sea, so if I'm never heard from again, I hope someone will find my
boat and enjoy it; at least until they too fall victim to its ultimate
lack of seaworthiness, thusly passing it along to the next unlucky
soon to be dead paddler. That said...

Though I may have several nitpicky things to say about the sales pitch
masquerading as a "serious article about sea kayak seaworthiness"--or
lack thereof--it's not worth the bother. In any case, I do still see
it as a clumsy attempt at an "apples vs. oranges" issue, with a rather
substantial bit of hyperbole thrown in for all the wrong reasons.

The Dubya-Walker may indeed have its place on the water (mild water,
at least), and there may well be many people who can, and will paddle
it with safety and joy, so why not concentrate their efforts towards
pointing this out rather than trying to "compete" with something that
only shares in common its tendency to float? At the very least, in my
eyes, it was an idiotic marketing strategy that can only do more harm
than good with regards to serious discussions about safety on the
water.

Enough ranting from me...now I get to go paddling! See you later!
(assuming that I survive my foolishness, that is). :-)

-- 
Melissa
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