On Friday 09 November 2007 20:37, Chuck wrote: > None of this would have been a factor 10-15 years ago. One of the > ironies of life is that for many of us just as we finally acquire the > experience we want or need, we lose the ability to take advantage of it. Exactly! That's one of the reasons us middle-aged get motorboats, or add engines/motors to our kayaks/canoes, and dream of motherships! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/8/2007 9:03:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, strosaker_at_yahoo.com writes: Recently, there was a discussion about immersion gear here on Paddlewise. Then I just received the SK mag email newsletter, which also had info about immersion gear. Once again, people who wear immersion gear are made out to be safe kayakers. I think too much emphasis is put on immersion gear at the expense of skills and judgment. Everytime a kayaker dies of hypothermia, it seems the blame is put on not wearing any or enough immersion gear. I disagree. I blame the hypothermia deaths on not having the skills and judgment to stay out of the water. Sure, there is a time and place for immersion gear, but I think a lot of people are using it to make up for having less than enough skills and judgment. It's sort of like feeling safe when driving recklessly because your car has an air bag and your seat belt is on. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But the rub is we often don't know what we don't know. Judgement is critical but we don't often know everything we need to know, particularly while paddling someplace new. My take on immersion apparel and skill development is to look where I'm at first what the water and air temps are, who I'm with, what the water activity is like and then I match that with suitable immersion apparel anyway. I've done a few trips in shorts and a long sleeve nylon shirt because it was hot AND the water was warm. But usually, around here in the Pacific Northwest I pretty much grab the drysuit all the time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All immersion gear is doing is buying a little more time in the water. If you are in the water and can't get back in your kayak in a few minutes, you're not getting back in. If you're not close enough to swim to shore or don't have a rescue on the way, and the water is cold enough, you are going to die, even with immersion gear. Having the skills and judgment to stay out of the water beats the best immersion gear. Don't get me wrong. There are times when I wear immersion gear, mainly when surfing or practicing rolls and rescues. Occasionally when the conditions are rough and I'm touring, I'll wear only enough to be comfortable in case of a brief swim. But most of the time I'm dressed for the air temperature, wind and some splashing. However, I also know that at my skill and judgment level, the chances of me spending more than a few minutes in the water are very small. For the same reason, I don't wear a helmet in my car in case of a traffic accident. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When I was in the Grand Canyon I didn't think I'd swim, but there I was Mr Carp in action, each roll overcome by succeeding waves until I finally popped out of the boat. My security was my crew, but I did wear some neoprene shorts and a vest under a drytop that flooded a bit. The water temps were about 52F, the air about mid 80's F. With the neoprene tunnel of my deck not much water flooded into the drytop but some did and that was why I wore the neo vest under the drytop. Just an added layer of security while I was sorting things out. It was no picnic getting out of the river, either, the whirlpools made sure they kept me in for as long as they wanted. ; ) Glad I had that PFD on too, as the term 'bottom time' would have had a whole new meaning. All in all I was prepared for a swim that I didn't think I would be having to make. Doug Lloyd writes: "The issue of insulation is a bit of a red herring, if one assumes the inclusion of a drysuit as one's immersion apparel corresponds with appropriate layers underneath for the conditions, etc. Though, Duane does a service by reminding us about the false sense a security a dry layer of synthetic material can leaves a paddler with." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely. Until one has had to spend quality time with the backup devices of your choice in a cold body of water one is not making decisions with the appropriate perspective. That takes alot of seat time to develop and practice for. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob wrote: > But the rub is we often don't know what we don't know. Judgement is > critical > but we don't often know everything we need to know, particularly while > paddling someplace new. This was brought home to me in March of this year. I wrote an article that appears in the current issue of SK about the death of a friend of mine. He had been paddling for over 20 years and IN THE PAST he had fairly decent self-rescue skills. As Wayne Horodowich pointed out to me, the only way to know when you don't have a skill is to try it and fail. IMHO, it's imperative to practice all of your self and assisted rescues as well as determining if your immersion gear is sufficient to keep you functioning in the water you usually paddle. Steve Holtzman Southern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
2 penny worth of a very low key paddler... I've paddled for years but get little time on the water, so my cumulative experience is still rather low. I'm very careful of what I go out in, weather, water & gear. I've rolled in practice but never in need & done re-entry drills as well. Oh and I mostly paddle solo on north atlantic coast. I think the skills / equipment balance is really about personal judgement. Anyone who thinks that a piece of equipment or particular skill will "keep them from dying" is fooling themselves. When I first did a re-entry drill at the beach where I launch it took me a while to calm my breathing in order to execute the paddle float re-entry. I was wearing a shortie wetsuit at the time. On a calm morning the trip to the 2 mile buoy is a nice pre-breakfast run. I wear a two piece dry top & pants. I know it won't "save my life" but I also know that if I do anything stupid and fall out of my boat I will at least not have the cold water hitting my chest as I go in and will have that much more energy to get back out. I still won't go out in water I don't think I can handle whilst alone. And I always have a pfd on, once again, just to buy a little time. I haven't bothered with a VHF as I'm line of site with the shore, only there for a month and have better reception on my cell phone at the buoy than I do in the cottage. I also know most of the lobster men in the area and have been assured they'd fish me out if I really needed it (they think I'm crazy in my tiny boat & I think compared to the size of the ocean... well we're both tiny). There are so many styles of kayaking and so many different conditions. I wouldn't expect someone who surfs or plays in rock gardens to think of their equipment exactly as I do, it wouldn't make sense anymore that it would for me to be required to wear a helmet (I'd have to sink a long way to hit a rock). Some of the stories that are posted here are obvious failures of judgement. At least one "he didn't take ____ because it was only a short trip" story has taught me to treat every single outing with exactly the same seriousness. But ultimately it is all a matter of personal choice an judgement. Gear won't keep us from dying but neither will our skills if we are incapacitated. So I'll work on my skills so that I needn't rely on my gear and I'll wear my gear incase my skills fail and I'll accept that the sport has risks. But then on this list, we all do. The trouble seems to be communicating this to newbies and non-kayakers. je janellen_at_harriman4.net In the end, all engineering is compromise. On 9 Nov 2007, at 04:54, Duane Strosaker wrote: All immersion gear is doing is buying a little more time in the water. If you are in the water and can't get back in your kayak in a few minutes, you're not getting back in. If you're not close enough to swim to shore or don't have a rescue on the way, and the water is cold enough, you are going to die, even with immersion gear. Having the skills and judgment to stay out of the water beats the best immersion gear. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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