John Kimantas, author of a series of excellent guidebooks to the coast of BC, and perhaps the person most knowledgeable of areas kayakers use there, just alerted Canadian paddlers that a large number of the beaches and campsites sea kayakers have traditionally used on Vancouver Island have been ceded over to the Maa-Nulth First Nations Peoples. Details of the losses begin here, on West Coast Paddler, a Victoria-based forum for paddlers: http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=1486 Aside from more remote locations, the list includes the launch site and provincial campground at Toquart Bay, Barkley Sound, from which many paddlers begin their visit to the Broken Group. Although US citizens have little leverage, and the primary political pressure to alleviate this must come from Canadian citizens, if you follow the thread linked above, John lays out ways paddlers from other nations might help. Here's hoping we can get some relief from this. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This is a tragedy of HUGE proportions for kayakers and others who like wilderness. I has been a miracle that the west coast has existed in the format that it has for the last few decades. Giving Federal land back to Indians is just a way of giving Federal land to the private sector. It is now "in play" for the highest dollar. It does not matter who the owner of the moment is... In one fell swoop, you get rid of all the nagging environmentalists, surfers, kayakers, nature freaks etc who influence the management of public lands and deliver it to the people who have money. And I wonder, given the fact that the new owners are Indian that they might not even be hamstrung by the rules in BC that tidal lands are in the public domain. So this makes the situation on the west side worse than the east side. Sure, it will take time to implement all the changes. But anyone who has seen the changes in Tofino over the last 30 years can attest to how fast this can occur. This poor planet Earth. Up against this ever multiplying population of humans. The seams are popping everywhere - global warming or whatever. The value of land is always the number of dollars (loonies) that it can generate. Wilderness always loses in the long term although it is worth fighting whenever possible in the short-term because that is all we have. Just the idea that all those unbelievably beautiful places were accessible to whatever rabble could scrap together a kayak is antithetical to the basic principles of land value. On Nov 2, 2007, at 12:34 PM, Dave Kruger wrote: > Here's hoping we can get some relief from this. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'll be the first to admit I know very little about this situation, but it seems to me that a good starting point would be to ask the new owners permission to use launching and camping sites. I know its not the white thing to do, and we have a tried and true history of fixing such inconveniences with violence and rascism, but it might be a nice gesture. Just thoughts. Harvey --- Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > John Kimantas, author of a series of excellent > guidebooks to the coast of > BC, and perhaps the person most knowledgeable of > areas kayakers use there, > just alerted Canadian paddlers that a large number > of the beaches and > campsites sea kayakers have traditionally used on > Vancouver Island have > been ceded over to the Maa-Nulth First Nations > Peoples. > > Details of the losses begin here, on West Coast > Paddler, a Victoria-based > forum for paddlers: > > http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=1486 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Harvey Golden wrote: > I'll be the first to admit I know very little about this situation, but > it seems to me that a good starting point would be to ask the new owners > permission to use launching and camping sites. I know its not the > white thing to do, and we have a tried and true history of fixing such > inconveniences with violence and rascism, but it might be a nice > gesture. Harvey, as usual, yours is the voice of reason and rationality. In fact, the (sometimes intense) dialog on West Coast Paddler has pretty much evolved in that direction. However, there is quite a bit of anxiety up there about the future development of public lands which had previously been "locked up" by the BC government, at least on a de facto basis, for recreational use, in particular massive areas of Clayoquot Sound, etc. This is not just hand-wringing ... rather, it is honest concern, in the face of past practices of __some__ (not all) of the First Nations peoples in BC. Change is difficult, especially when a resource you thought was "safe" is no longer. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The voice of reason and rationally??? Sorry, I've just been labeled a violent racist because of the color of my skin. Harvey has lost me on whatever else he might have to say. -----Original Message----- Harvey Golden wrote: >I know its not the white thing to do, and we have a tried and true history of fixing such > inconveniences with violence and rascism, but it might be a nice > gesture. Harvey, as usual, yours is the voice of reason and rationality. In fact, the (sometimes intense) dialog on West Coast Paddler has pretty much evolved in that direction. Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
(snip) > The situation in BC will be interesting to watch as it unfolds in the > coming years, and I hope that well intentioned Canadians and > reasonable tribal leaders can sort out these issues to everyone's > satisfaction. Even the tribal leaders are aware of modern realities > (their people are no longer the only people around, for instance), and > they too can understand and appreciate how others might be concerned > about access to natural places that are important to all of humanity, > and not just themselves. Give respect, and there's a good chance to > receive respect in return. > > -- > Melissa Even before the government announcement recently, some tribal elders have been keeping some kayak stakeholders informed and involved. That's pretty cool when you consider the realities of only a few years ago. Not all First nation leaders have been as cooperative (past and present), but they are less commonly inclined that way as tourism grows in our province. For guide operators, there may even be chance for group-site enhancements - something not entirely permissible previously. While this may be bad news for purists, one also has to remember that technically, many areas - like the Bunsbys and Brooks are special environmental reserves and if push came to shove, kayakers shouldn't really even be allowed in some of these spots anyway. My experience with coastal land overseen by First Nation peoples is that there is a slight inconvenience with some destination areas securing permission to visit and camp (inconveniences to me and them), but I've never been denied - and I always respect the land I'm on and the ones who claim ownership. While the scope of land settlements recently was a shock for those who forgot that these settlement proposals were in the works for some time, one bright spot at the moment for the negatively inclined paddlers pulling out their hair is that in many cases, a two year transitional period is now in effect. I for one will be hoping paddlers can ambassador for ourselves and by association, other outdoor adventures, and work cooperatively with the new landlords to help ensure access and enjoyment for future generations - both native and none-native. It won't be perfect. Life never is. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > My experience with coastal land overseen by First Nation peoples is that > there is a slight inconvenience with some destination areas securing > permission to visit and camp (inconveniences to me and them), but I've > never been denied - and I always respect the land I'm on and the ones > who claim ownership. Some areas are firmly off limits, mainly owing to the presence of gravesites, etc. Other areas, I have been denied, but given no reason; and in a lesser minority, have paid for the privilege of of use, which was an accepted, regulated use. I'm not complaining; it's their land, and theirs to use as they see fit. I agree the new landlords may be no worse/better than the previous ones; much of the concern I have seen expressed was for the increased potential for permanent development of shorelines which had nominal protection as Crown land, etc. Some of the development of native lands has not followed accepted zoning and land use practices for the surrounding (nonnative) lands. Those huge condos to the port hand as you enter Victoria Harbour being an example. For example, I'd not like to see a casino with associated marina and resort on the outside of Flores Island in Clayoquot Sound. That would suck. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave said (snip): > For example, I'd not like to see a casino with associated marina and > resort on the outside of Flores Island in Clayoquot Sound. That would > suck. Time will tell how good or bad things get. One thing is for sure, and that is nothing stays the same. There is a huge resort going in to seaward of Uclulet. It is being promoted as a development with a completely environmental deference (low impact, natural ambiance, etc., etc.). One can only hope if change is unavoidable - which it certainly seems to be with the current political regime in BC - then things be done referential to environmental imperatives. Certainly, the lack of consultation in general and specifically the lack of deference given to those with minimal-development views is appalling in BC. The incompetence with some of the timber-righted land going to developers is something that has me pulling out what little hair I have left. Typical Canadian passive/aggressive behavior though...scream bloody murder, pull my hair our, then calmly go to bed and never write my politicians. Doug L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree. I have no experience with this set of owners. But I do have experience in similar situations with other tribes. Often kayakers are not a big enough deal to get much done. You are dealing with a tribe not an individual and in my experience that is dealing with a bureaucracy that is slow and inefficient. I agree that if they own the land there are not many alternatives. Personal relationships can work as they do in all of life, but coming in from the outside as an unknown and trying to get such permission is difficult. This is my experience. Look at it from their point of view. Why should they give permission? Some kayakers are bad guests for one thing. As for $, I am not sure we represent enough of them to bother with. I do not think it is a red and white thing. It is that land and beaches formerly in the public domain are now private. Now the owners, not the public, get to decide what to do. We no longer get a vote. As for the "white thing to do", I am not sure what that is. The U.S. has placed a very high value on private property and the rights of the owner to do whatever he/she wants. If you paddle around the American San Juans, you find that the owners are generally aggressive about asserting those rights. First Nation natives and kayakers have often been on the same side of the political divide. On Nov 2, 2007, at 3:32 PM, Harvey Golden wrote: > it seems to me that a good > starting point would be to ask the new owners > permission to use launching and camping sites. I know > its not the white thing to do, and we have a tried and > true history of fixing such inconveniences with > violence and rascism, but it might be a nice gesture. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am not Native American but my wife's family is so I have some experience with tribes but no experience at all with Canadian tribes. In the USA tribes are separate governmental entities but still must adhere to the U.S. Constitution and Federal law. They are not necessarily required to adhere to state constitutions and state law, however, unless they have signed agreements. Tribes are generally governed by a Tribal Council of elected representatives and it would be this group that kayakers should consider approaching first to see what plans the tribe has for the existing facilities. I think that closing down existing facilities would be less likely than charging a fee for their use; one costs money and the other generates money. Before you approach any tribal council you should consider that, from the tribe's point of view, the land was not given to the tribe but rather was returned to the tribe. From their point of view people have been using their land all this time without permission. There will be members of the tribe who will be in favor of continued public access and other members opposed to it. But like small communities everywhere the majority will probably be concerned about jobs and keeping their kids and grandkids in the area. If I were trying to convince a Tribal Council to do something I would first attend a few Council meetings and see what their plans for the area are. It may well be that their ideas and your ideas are the same. If not, I would design a presentation that would best blend what the tribe wants with what I want. I would spend time talking about providing local jobs, how kayaking is an eco-friendly activity, and how the tribe can use tourism to increase its visibility to the outside world. I know that emotions run high when these sorts of problems crop up but I'm pretty sure there will be some common ground that might even be better than what is available now. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Craig, I wanted to quote the two paragraphs below, specifically, though your entire message was well reasoned and appreciated...at least by me. On Monday, November 05, 2007, at 9:49:18 AM PST, you wrote: > Before you approach any tribal council you should consider that, > from the tribe's point of view, the land was not given to the tribe > but rather was returned to the tribe. From their point of view > people have been using their land all this time without permission. > There will be members of the tribe who will be in favor of continued > public access and other members opposed to it. But like small > communities everywhere the majority will probably be concerned about > jobs and keeping their kids and grandkids in the area. > If I were trying to convince a Tribal Council to do something I > would first attend a few Council meetings and see what their plans > for the area are. It may well be that their ideas and your ideas are > the same. If not, I would design a presentation that would best > blend what the tribe wants with what I want. I would spend time > talking about providing local jobs, how kayaking is an eco-friendly > activity, and how the tribe can use tourism to increase its > visibility to the outside world. I've found that the Quinault tribal council, and their various committees, can be very accommodating to non-tribal people if they're approached with respect and a sincere wish to work out solutions that have the potential to be good for everyone. As it is now, the Quinault "River Committee" has certain rules for the use of both Lake Quinault and the lower Quinault river. They do, at this point, allow Spring through Fall recreational boating on the lake, as long as an inexpensive permit is acquired for each boat (I have two kayaks, and sometimes like to take a friend along, so I have two permits). They do have a small hatchery on the lake, and so their rules are also designed to keep the lake and river fish populations healthy and thriving. Currently though, and for the past several years, the permits are only good from April to November. For a while, I didn't realize this, and simply continued my year 'round paddling on the lake. No one ever gave me any problems, and tribal members even waved to me whenever they saw me on the water. Once I learned of the seasonal limits, I wrote to them asking about the possibility of extending the permits; at least for canoes and kayaks. They were very receptive to the idea, and invited me to attend a River Committee meeting to discuss it. Unfortunately, I became very busy just then, and had to be somewhere else at the time of the meeting. I'm still in contact with them, and will soon attend a meeting to present my proposal. I'm sure we can work something out. I'm not always in agreement with tribal ideas and actions (sometimes I'm very strongly opposed, depending on the issue), but I do also agree with their point of view that such lands are not "given" to them, but "returned", and I respect that. The situation in BC will be interesting to watch as it unfolds in the coming years, and I hope that well intentioned Canadians and reasonable tribal leaders can sort out these issues to everyone's satisfaction. Even the tribal leaders are aware of modern realities (their people are no longer the only people around, for instance), and they too can understand and appreciate how others might be concerned about access to natural places that are important to all of humanity, and not just themselves. Give respect, and there's a good chance to receive respect in return. -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The Makah tribe on Cape Flattery, Washington state, allow us to paddle or surf to our hearts content. There are places they'd rather not have us but that isn't usually a problem. The biggest bargain in watersports is the 7 dollar recreation pass they issue for the year. Perhaps the folks up on Vancouver Island will be as accessible as the Makah. However, should that not be the case I have a suggestion: FEATHERCRAFT. I have not once paddled Vancouver Island because it takes for frickin ever to get there. Much easier to hop a plane bound for Sitka or Ketchikan, buy some camp fuel, fill up the waterbags and head on out. I'm not trying to dissuade you from a Barkley or Clayoquat mission, but I'd be in a really isolated camp by the time you got done beating your car to death on a Tofino bound logging road. Cheers, Rob G In a message dated 11/4/2007 5:33:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, harveydgolden_at_yahoo.com writes: I'll be the first to admit I know very little about this situation, but it seems to me that a good starting point would be to ask the new owners permission to use launching and camping sites. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: > I have not once paddled Vancouver Island because it takes for frickin > ever to get there. Much easier to hop a plane bound for Sitka or > Ketchikan, buy some camp fuel, fill up the waterbags and head on out. > I'm not trying to dissuade you from a Barkley or Clayoquot mission, but > I'd be in a really isolated camp by the time you got done beating your > car to death on a Tofino bound logging road. Just hold that thought ... better yet, spread it. Don't forget the man-eating log trucks and mosquitoes the size of waterbombers! (PS: all pavement to Tofino, these day) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There is now a ten dollar per person per day camping fee in Barkley Sound within the park. That would buy a lot of stove fuel and granola bars somewhere else. There are also man-eating sea lions everywhere. And the whale-watching boats will swamp you with their wakes, if they don't run you over first. Brad Crain Quoting Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>: > Rcgibbert_at_aol.com wrote: > >> I have not once paddled Vancouver Island because it takes for frickin >> ever to get there. Much easier to hop a plane bound for Sitka or >> Ketchikan, buy some camp fuel, fill up the waterbags and head on out. >> I'm not trying to dissuade you from a Barkley or Clayoquot mission, but >> I'd be in a really isolated camp by the time you got done beating your >> car to death on a Tofino bound logging road. > > Just hold that thought ... better yet, spread it. Don't forget the > man-eating log trucks and mosquitoes the size of waterbombers! > > (PS: all pavement to Tofino, these day) > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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