Over the past 8 years I have used 5 different neoprene sprayskirts on 3 different kayaks. With all the skirts (even when new) on any paddle more than 1 hour in length I come back with my swim trunks or hydroskins (waist to feet) soaking wet. This happens on flat-water paddles about the same as paddling in waves. It happens even when I do no rolling or deep edging. I just assumed this is the way neoprene skirts worked, but recently in talking with some other paddlers I find out that they are much drier. I paddle with a GP and do dump a lot of water on the front of the skirt from just normal paddling. Also the 3 kayaks were all very low decked and there is very little (if any) room between the bottom of the skirt and my clothing at my hips. 1. If doing no rolling or deep edging should I be dry in the neoprene skirt? 2. Could clothing contact with the bottom of the skirt be causing some kind of wicking action? 3. Is there a wrong way to wear a sprayskirt that would cause water to be wicked under the skirt? 4. Should a properly fitted neoprene skirt keep you completely dry when doing edging with the cockpit rim under water? Thanks for any help you can give me. A dripping wet Mark. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I paddle with a GP Me too. > 1. If doing no rolling or deep edging should I be dry in the > neoprene skirt? I am usually dry. > > 2. Could clothing contact with the bottom of the skirt be causing > some kind of wicking action? I find this to be true especially with capilene shirts/underwear when not combined with some type of splash top. It just keeps wicking and wicking. > > 3. Is there a wrong way to wear a sprayskirt that would cause water > to be wicked under the skirt? My bizarre sense of humor will not allow me to answer. > > 4. Should a properly fitted neoprene skirt keep you completely dry > when doing edging with the cockpit rim under water? Pretty much dry. Probably dependent on the rim material and the skirt. Cheap skirt and plastic rotomolded rim not so good. High end glass boat and quality skirt pretty drum tight. I have a home built kayak that uses a cheap skirt. The tip of the cockpit is quite pointy and changes plane abruptly. Leaks to beat the band. Other home built kayak has a more rounded front tip cockpit, stays more in plane and uses a nice Snap Dragon Designs skirt. Much drier. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
mjamja_at_earthlink.net wrote: > Over the past 8 years I have used 5 different neoprene sprayskirts on 3 > different kayaks. With all the skirts (even when new) on any paddle more > than 1 hour in length I come back with my swim trunks or hydroskins > (waist to feet) soaking wet. This happens on flat-water paddles about > the same as paddling in waves. It happens even when I do no rolling or > deep edging. I just assumed this is the way neoprene skirts worked, but > recently in talking with some other paddlers I find out that they are > much drier. Wet Mark, Could this be mainly condensation/sweat? If I work hard paddling, I get some condensation below my waist. Your buddies may not be putting as much effort into their workouts. If you are paddling on cold water, you may be condensing moisture out of the air, and some of that ends up on you. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I usually come back all wet, but it is due to perspiration mostly. My neoprene skirt does not allow water in ( it is a Seals Sprayskirt). But due to the exercise and the cloths proper for "dress for immersion" cause me to loose a lot of water. So it makes almost no difference a coule of droplets coming in. Best Regards, Rafael. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I usually paddle flatwater and have a waterproof sprayskirt and no holes in the hull, and yet usually wind up with wet clothes by the end of the day. I have no reasonable explanation to date. Possibly the skirt has been punctured by sharp-finned bottom fish, but no holes are evident. BRC Quoting "mjamja_at_earthlink.net" <mjamja_at_earthlink.net>: > Over the past 8 years I have used 5 different neoprene sprayskirts > on 3 different kayaks. With all the skirts (even when new) on any > paddle more than 1 hour in length I come back with my swim trunks or > hydroskins (waist to feet) soaking wet. This happens on flat-water > paddles about the same as paddling in waves. It happens even when > I do no rolling or deep edging. I just assumed this is the way > neoprene skirts worked, but recently in talking with some other > paddlers I find out that they are much drier. > > I paddle with a GP and do dump a lot of water on the front of the > skirt from just normal paddling. Also the 3 kayaks were all very > low decked and there is very little (if any) room between the bottom > of the skirt and my clothing at my hips. > > 1. If doing no rolling or deep edging should I be dry in the neoprene skirt? > > 2. Could clothing contact with the bottom of the skirt be causing > some kind of wicking action? > > 3. Is there a wrong way to wear a sprayskirt that would cause water > to be wicked under the skirt? > > 4. Should a properly fitted neoprene skirt keep you completely dry > when doing edging with the cockpit rim under water? > > > Thanks for any help you can give me. > > A dripping wet Mark. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm more in line with Jennifer. I gave up on "touring" or "sea kayak" spray skirts last summer and went back to using my white water neoprene spray skirt. It stays on tight, it doesn't allow water in, and has no straps to slide off my shoulders (which always makes me feel like a superannuated ingenue). The downside to w/w sprayskirts is that they fit really tight; sometimes you have to get them wet to get them on when you start out. This can make you feel somewhat insecure if you feel your spray skirt should come off easily. Trust me... when you need it to come off.... it comes off! I now have a larger assortment of touring spray skirts (complete with straps!) that came along with a second-hand Mariner Escape and will test them next season. Perhaps one of them will be useful. Find a friend with an assortment of both w/w and touring spray skirts and try them. Our group has our own version of a paddle fest in the spring where we all bring everything we have (paddles, spray skirts, kayaks, PFDs, etc) and everyone tries them out. This gives you a good chance to learn what fits you best (and worst) and is a good chance to practice rescue techniques and rolls too. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/12/2007 6:23:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, mjamja_at_earthlink.net writes: 1. If doing no rolling or deep edging should I be dry in the neoprene skirt? 2. Could clothing contact with the bottom of the skirt be causing some kind of wicking action? 3. Is there a wrong way to wear a sprayskirt that would cause water to be wicked under the skirt? 4. Should a properly fitted neoprene skirt keep you completely dry when doing edging with the cockpit rim under water? Thanks for any help you can give me. A dripping wet Mark. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark, My Mountain Surf DuroRing EZ On is totally dry in all but the heaviest whitewater. Even then, very little gets through. Their rand designs are fantastic. It can be a bit hard to get on the rim, especially in the cold, but when I had to swim it came off just fine. Another suggestion is to look at the designs done by Prijon/Wildwasser. They have a sloping deck that pooled water will not collect on and leak through seams plus a rand on the whitewater designs. All of my Snapdragon neoprene decks leak water. However, I was pleased to see my buddy's new Snapdragon with extra strength bungies seal really well and not let in water on an hour long roll session. I suspect it will be fine in moderate wave action. Touring designs have always leaked like a sieve for me. The suspenders are right out of a 1950's Sears and Roebuck catalog. No thanks. Cheers, Rob G **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One source of leaks is the edges of the cockpit rim. If the coaming is straight along the sides and the skirt is a little rounded, the fit will be tighter fore and aft and looser side to side. That shouldn't matter if you're not on edge, though. Neoprene fabric should be completely waterproof. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for all the feedback. I originally thought sweating was a major factor but some recent paddles on cooler days with minimal clothing had me just as wet and prompted me to start thinking more about the problem. Also it is not just me being wet there is always several multiple sponge fulls of water in the kayak even when enter/exit is dry from a dock. The condensation idea probably does not apply as our really cold days are usually right after cold fronts and there is low humidity. I do get condensation in my day hatch during much of the warmer months from my frozen water bottles. The one Mountain Surf skirt I had was probably the driest, but it was one of their large bungee and not the rand type. The Snapdragons, IR, and one other all had the same small bungee type attachment. It is probably 1000 miles to the nearest dealer that carries any wide assortment of neoprene skirts so test fitting is not really an option. Maybe it is just a combination of all the mentioned problems. One by itself might not be noticable but several added together might result in the amount of wettness I am getting. I am going to see if I can paddle a couple of friends kayaks and use their skirts and see if it makes a difference. Thanks again for your info. If I discover something specific I will let everyone know. Mark J. Arnold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for all the feedback. I originally thought sweating was a major factor but some recent paddles on cooler days with minimal clothing had me just as wet and prompted me to start thinking more about the problem. Also it is not just me being wet there is always several multiple sponge fulls of water in the kayak even when enter/exit is dry from a dock. The condensation idea probably does not apply as our really cold days are usually right after cold fronts and there is low humidity. I do get condensation in my day hatch during much of the warmer months from my frozen water bottles. The one Mountain Surf skirt I had was probably the driest, but it was one of their large bungee and not the rand type. The Snapdragons, IR, and one other all had the same small bungee type attachment. It is probably 1000 miles to the nearest dealer that carries any wide assortment of neoprene skirts so test fitting is not really an option. Maybe it is just a combination of all the mentioned problems. One by itself might not be noticable but several added together might result in the amount of wettness I am getting. I am going to see if I can paddle a couple of friends kayaks and use their skirts and see if it makes a difference. Thanks again for your info. If I discover something specific I will let everyone know. Mark J. Arnold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
mjamja_at_earthlink.net wrote: > Thanks for all the feedback. > > I originally thought sweating was a major factor but some recent paddles > on cooler days with minimal clothing had me just as wet and prompted me > to start thinking more about the problem. Also it is not just me being > wet there is always several multiple sponge fulls of water in the kayak > even when enter/exit is dry from a dock. Mark, I agree you have a significant leak somewhere, and that some of it seems to be coming from/through the sprayskirt. However, the amount of leakage you describe seems excessive for that source, unless your paddle puts a lot of water onto the deck with every stroke. Is your boat equipped with a rudder? I've chased leaks on a couple boats, and another possible source is via the rudder cable channels, if you are paddling water rough enough to immerse the cable exits. It might seem that the tiny holes there would not admit much water, but typically the "pumping" action of your body motion on the spray skirt deck can actually work an enormous amount of water forward. An easy test of this is to securely seal the exits using electrician's tape (small slit for cable exit), and then paddle without the skirt for a while, using a paddle that does not throw water into the cockpit. Then switch to your GP and seal the deck. Compare water inside to what happens the way you usually paddle. If you do not have any exits for rudder cables, then I punt. Well, there is another possible source: a leak where the coaming attaches to the hull. This is an easy one to chase: stick your head inside the boat, with a headlamp on, and have a compliant helper spray gentle streams under the coaming edge, making sure the spray is not coming over the coaming edge. Move around the coaming and you should see water if you have any detachment. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If you want to go looking for leaks, the best way I've found is to pressurize the hull and spray/spread soapy water over it. A sponge with soapy water will work. To pressurize the hull, put your spray skirt on the boat and put a hose from a shop vac or something that you can use the output air from into the tunnel of the spray skirt. Wrap something around the tunnel to close it against the hose. This doesn't need to be real air tight, in fact if you do it by hand while someone else soaps the boat it might allow you to modulate the pressure to keep from blowing the spray skirt off. I pressurized a 37 foot sailboat with my shop vac this way and found a leak in the middle of the fiberglass deck. The non-skid dimple matched up with a bubble on the inside at a radius where the cabin house met the deck so there was no core there. Very small hole in a place you'd never look. Good luck, Carey -----Original Message----- From: Dave Kruger mjamja_at_earthlink.net wrote: > Thanks for all the feedback. > > I originally thought sweating was a major factor but some recent paddles > on cooler days with minimal clothing had me just as wet and prompted me > to start thinking more about the problem. Also it is not just me being > wet there is always several multiple sponge fulls of water in the kayak > even when enter/exit is dry from a dock. Mark, I agree you have a significant leak somewhere, and that some of it seems to be coming from/through the sprayskirt. However, the amount of leakage you describe seems excessive for that source, unless your paddle puts a lot of water onto the deck with every stroke. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/12/2007 6:03:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, kdruger_at_pacifier.com writes: Well, there is another possible source: a leak where the coaming attaches to the hull. This is an easy one to chase: stick your head inside the boat, with a headlamp on, and have a compliant helper spray gentle streams under the coaming edge, making sure the spray is not coming over the coaming edge. Move around the coaming and you should see water if you have any detachment. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had a deck fitting on my NDK Poseidon emit water into my day hatch. It took me a long time to find it and fix it. A garden hose over every fitting or deck penetration makes alot of sense in finding a leak. However, I'll bet that a change in spraydeck will get Mark the results he wants. So many decks are reflective of the name "spray" deck as that's about all they can handle before you take on water. Cheers, Rob G **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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