RE: [Paddlewise] RE:Mariner Max for sale

Doug Lloyd [mailto:douglloyd_at_shaw.ca] asked:


>>Matt, I was blowing up a side shot of my Nordkapp HS on the photocopier at

work on my break, then cut a scaled inch along the length of the kayak 
picture and glued the upper and lower half back together to get a 
representation of what a lowered Nordkapp would look like. I also (because 
the long bow nose gets too thin) took off 5 inches off the end of the bow 
(to scale). Everyone says the bow overhang is for looks only. If I even do 
this full scale to a real Nordkapp, can you think of any negative 
consequences for handling.<<<<<<<<<<<

"Everyone" must not include Nordkapp designer Frank Goodman. Years ago Frank
told me that someone in England had copied his Nordkapp but made it look
considerably different by cutting off the long ends. He believed that change
resulted in substantially reduced performance. Some of this maybe was due to
a designer wanting to see it that way, but I can see a couple of tings that
might be changed here. One is that the higher bow and its wider handle like
end (placed at the angle it is) serves to help lift the bow in surf and a
following sea. The angle is important here because as I once witnessed the
same paddler switching between a Nordkapp and an Arluk II in the same surf
it became clear that it had to be the greater upward angle on the Nordkapp
that kept its bow up much better even though the Arluk's much wider
beaver-tail like bow was designed to hold the bow up better than a Nordkapp
on surf landings (as I understand it--at Paul Caffyn's request) The
shallower upward angle on the Arluk was such that the wide bow was at a
downward angle when the stern was lifted by the breaker and its width
actually forced it down as a result rather than helped it stay on the
surface. You will also slightly change the windage balance such as to
increase weatherhelm some. But the latter difference is likely to be slight.
You could always add the same size snout back on to your lowered Nordkapp.
That would be my recommendation.

>>>>>Also, I notice you raised and lowered some of you Mariner designs for 
shorter torsoed paddlers and taller, respectively. What are some of the 
design/handling aspects that one should be aware of when contemplating these

kind of changes. Doug Alderson has a factory lowered Slipstream for his 
shorter torso. Seems to behave well. He doesn't pack it with a lot of
gear.<<<<<<

Mostly cutting down a design evenly lessens overall windage but doesn't
change the windage balance much. Cutting windage is and advantage to a
smaller paddler (with often less ultimate--arm wrestling type--strength and
lighter weight--even more windage exposed). The major change is to the fit.
Will you have enough foot room? Thigh room? Hip room? It is not that hard to
cut a kayak down, just cut it apart at the seams and trim away some of the
hull and deck and seam it back together. The major problem is likely to be
if there are strong curves in the area you are trimming such that the deck
and hull won't fit together too well (as you discovered about the Nordkapp's
bow). If you cut more from the hull than from the deck you increase the
flair and that means secondary stability will come into play sooner on
leaning. That is what we did with the Express EX to make the Express. In
order to make the Elan more tippy than the Express (a plus for small low
center of gravity paddlers) we started back with the Express EX (that had
more V and less flair than the pried open (to fit the deck) Express. This
made the Elan about 3/4 " narrower than the Express and EX since some of the
angle was cut off both the hull and deck which were both trimmed about an
inch. Since the Nordkapp has more vertical sides it won't change as much in
width if you cut it down.

>>>>>>>Also, if I were to acquire a Mariner model, which would best suit a
shorter 
paddler wanting trips for a week, surf and impact zone play, but good speed 
for touring. Stability isn't a concern (as in don't need something wide for 
confidence)?<<<<<<<

If you can fit your feet and thighs into it I suspect you would like the
Elan with its low profile (but still a little more volume and storage than
your Nordkapp). The inch deeper (2" at the back of the cockpit Express)
would fit your bill but likely has so much more volume than you are used to
that it might seem too deep for someone wanting to cut down a Nordkapp.

>>>>I like your web site; I wish you had a more up-to-date site with better 
pictures, owner pictures and stories, etc. I suppose if you scaled back 
operations and only just started making kayaks again, a hot website wasn't 
ever on the agenda.<<<<<<<

Yes the website needs repairing and updating but there is so much
information in it already I'm not sure adding too it with stories etc. would
be the best thing. Not much incentive to change it much but perhaps I'll
have more time to do so since you are one step behind on our evolution. Our
present builder has not been able to support his family with the level of
business we were doing and his own kayak business didn't take off as we had
hoped. The return to making kayaks was mostly to try to help him make the
transition. We are again out of the kayak selling business. The last kayak
we made (an Elan) is in my garage and is expected to be picked up next week.
I have gotten all the molds back and now have an even more serious storage
problem. We won't be selling mariner's any longer. Several companies are
interested in making some of all of them so something could happen along
that line (if it doesn't require too much work on my part) but nothing is
fixed or likely to happen real soon in that respect. In the present economy
kayaks and other higher priced items (like cars) are not flying off the
showroom floor these days.

>>>>>>Last question if you have a few minutes: you test a lot of kayaks for 
turning times. You must have a consistent lean so comparisons are 
meaningful. How does this rocker factor relate to weathercocking/leecocking 
potential. How to you assess these aspects with such static tests for your 
statistics? IMaybe you don't. Is there a way you know ahead of time from a 
short observation which kayaks will perform in a non-neutral manner? Thanks 
Matt.<<<<<<<<<

To try to be consistent (and still stay relatively dry and also able to test
a kayak I don't have a spraydeck to fit) what I do is to lean the kayak as
far as the knee braces and fit will allow (without seriously risking a
capsize or slipping out of the cockpit) but no further than when water is
splashing seriously into the cockpit (or on the spraydeck). I could look at
a kayak and make a guess as to if it weatherhelms or not and how strongly
and be right say 90% of the time or better. There are a lot of factors
involved and the times I would be wrong in my predictions would be because I
didn't take one or more into full account (or haven't figured out some
aspect that comes into play yet). That's when it gets fun. When I'm wrong I
get to guess at what I'm missing and maybe add to my knowledge. 

Even though I am out of the kayak sales business again we are treading into
the area that might be called "trade secrets" which I'm not sure I want to
discuss publicly quite yet (even though I have helped a few designers--who
might be considered competitors--I especially like understand how to improve
a design for this aspect and they have done so. The best way to tell how
much a kayak weathercocks is to paddle it across a sidewind. Chances are
good there will be enough wind to test for this on any given test day since
it doesn't take much wind to make the effect obvious. Try to keep the test
kayak level and maybe close your eyes as you paddle so you don't
unconsciously make the corrections that an experienced non-rudder paddler
just naturally does. 

If you show me the lines of a design you have done I'd be happy to make some
suggestions that I think might improve it (or suggest what to leave out of
the prototype so that on testing it will be easy to modify it to find the
best balance before finalizing the design).

Matt Broze
www.marinerkayaks.com 
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