I received an email from Folbot that had a link to their new folding boat which, according to the video, comes in one backpack and assembles in 12.5 minutes. Some of you might be interested in seeing it so this is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlsE2Ym9i-E Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > I received an email from Folbot that had a link to their new folding boat > which, according to the video, comes in one backpack and assembles in 12.5 > minutes. Some of you might be interested in seeing it so this is the link: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlsE2Ym9i-E > I tried & tried to get that URL to work, but a simple search on YouTube found the video [added 7 hours ago]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAxzQWhaaZQ > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Apparently something happened to that link. They sent out another email today that refers people to a new url: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAxzQWhaaZQ I just tested it and it works; but then, the other one worked for me too. Go figure. The boat is really cute... apparently the paddler needs to learn more vertical strokes as he moves the bow a good 10-15 degrees with every low-angle paddle stroke. I have no idea what it costs but since I now have all the hard-shell kayaks I want... maybe I should look at a folder. Still cheaper than a teen-aged-girlfriend. :) Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 4:31 PM, mark <ckayakr_at_dotzen.org> wrote: > Craig Jungers wrote: > > > I received an email from Folbot that had a link to their new folding > > boat > > which, according to the video, comes in one backpack and assembles in > > 12.5 > > minutes. Some of you might be interested in seeing it so this is the > > link: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlsE2Ym9i-E > > > > > I tried & tried to get that URL to work, but a simple search on YouTube > found the video [added 7 hours ago]: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAxzQWhaaZQ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I received an email from Folbot that had a link to their new folding boat > which, according to the video, comes in one backpack and assembles in 12.5 > minutes. Oh, yeah.... And covers 12.5 nm in 12.5 hours. This is a 10 ft boat with 34" beam. Miracles don't happen. With folders, you either have a well performing and/or rugged hull and frame (think Feathercraft), or fast assembling. This all has been discussed many times at www.foldingkayaks.org. My apologies for late response to the message. Have just returned from the "undiscovered land" - Exumas Land and Sea Park on Bahamas, via same undiscovered Nassau, (and quite deservedly so). Exumas and the Park leave better impression than Nassau, though. With FC Kahuna - 15 ft boat (true), 36 lbs weight (real weight 51 lbs with bag, seat, seasock and rudder), allegedly 20-nimutes assembling (average reported time 30 minutes with rudder, takes me usually 30-35 minutes). Hot, sweltering weather, assembe after red-eyes flight from Vancouver (+ 3 hrs time difference), moving slow like a lemur, few mistakes requiring partial dissembling and assembling again. Result: 6 hours (!!!), including packing in all the 2-week food and gear, 30 minuters lunch break, 30 miinutes rain break, few minutes talking to a police cruiser (no, officer, I'm not camping, I'm assembling and getting the heck out of here), and to local yachtie about the closest wilderness campsite. Probably, the assembling itself took some 2 or 2.5 hours. (And I have already assembled it dozens of times before, less than 40 minutes usually). But it is really a seaworthy folder, fast, extremely rudded, and capable of a 2-week unsupported trip with a paddler under 160 lbs (3 weeks if you don't have to carry 20 liters of fresh water). Back to the newly discovered folder. Anybody concerned may visit www.folbot.com for more details. ..."Bag dimensions: 35" x 18" x 10". Only 24 lbs., it packs down small and takes minutes to assemble. ...With this urban friendly boat - just toss it over your shoulder and hop on the subway or bus"... My 2 cents: You may safely add 10 lbs to the above 24 lbs of the stated weight of the boat (bag, seat, sprayskirt, cockpit cover), and another 10 lbs of paddle, pump, PFD, snack, water bottle, sunblock etc - about 44 lbs in total. Like I said, packed FC Kahuna weighs 51 lbs, and it DOES come in a good backpack (same size as this 10-ft Folbot bag), so you don't have to toss it over your shoulder, risking to dislocate some spinal vertebra. Backpack of that size is very bulky and makes for uncomfortable weight distribution, so 50 lbs feels like 70. You can't walk nonchalantly with such a hump, you can hardly toil along some 100-200 yards. With FC, there have been some suggestions from European users on how to use a kayak cart to tranport an FC backpack (they do use trains and buses - we apparently have bypassed this evolutionary step on the West Coast). Some carts are not suitable for trains, and some suitable are too bulky for storing under deck in a single folder, - so this does represent a problem. "Tossing it over your shoulder", they say? What manufacturers think, I wonder, when they attach a gym-bag strap to some 40-50 lbs bag (not just this one - there are some other too). Perhaps, they need somebody to injure oneself and sue these buffoons. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
alex wrote: >> I received an email from Folbot that had a link to their new folding boat >> which, according to the video, comes in one backpack and assembles in 12.5 >> minutes. > > Oh, yeah.... And covers 12.5 nm in 12.5 hours. This is a 10 ft boat with 34" > beam. Miracles don't happen. With folders, you either have a well performing > and/or rugged hull and frame (think Feathercraft), or fast assembling. [snip] I usually let Alex sink in his own juices, but this blast of misinformation exceeds his usual quota. I suspect anyone who has really looked this boat over will see that it is a significant departure from Folbot's usual meter. The Citibot is not intended to be a long-haul, rough water craft. It is a "City Boat," and as such is for those leisurely late afternoon (or early morning) paddles on the local reservoir, placid lake, or backwater. It is not designed to satisfy a globe trotter like Alex, who needs a heavier, stronger setup. A knee jerk response such as the one Alex made is unfair to the manufacturer and does not help folks new to the sport evaluate a new product. It is fair to say that Alex has a prejudice against Folbot products; as far as I know, he has not handled any of the newer models of their boats, yet continually knocks them. That is unfortunate, because Alex has a wealth of experience and is a valuable resource when he discusses boats he knows well. Note: I have no affiliation with Folbot, except that I own three of their boats, and have found them to be safe, useful craft for their intended uses. They have limitations, as does any boat. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 5:09 PM, alex <al.m_at_3web.net> wrote: > > > Oh, yeah.... And covers 12.5 nm in 12.5 hours. This is a 10 ft boat with > 34" beam. Miracles don't happen. With folders, you either have a well > performing and/or rugged hull and frame (think Feathercraft), or fast > assembling. > I don't think this boat is aimed at expedition (or even weekend) paddlers but, rather, at people with limited storage space and an occasional urge to paddle a local lake, slough, estuary, or calm waterfront. It might not be a Feathercraft but it doesn't cost US$4k either. > "Tossing it over your shoulder", they say? What manufacturers think, I > wonder, when they attach a gym-bag strap to some 40-50 lbs bag (not just > this one - there are some other too). Perhaps, they need somebody to injure > oneself and sue these buffoons. > We all have our prejudices and preferences when it comes to boats, I guess. I'm not sure how you get to 40-50 pounds from an original 24 pound (even if you add your 10 pounds to that it's still only 34 pounds). Even I can carry 34 pounds on my back without risking injury. I still think that this Folbot - and Folbot kayaks in general - have a place in kayaking. Perhaps not the same place as Feathercraft but surely there must be room for competition. Not everyone will be taking their folding or inflatable kayaks to the Bahamas. It would be nice to see a review of this boat from someone who has actually paddled one. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> this blast of misinformation > exceeds his usual quota. Could you be please more specific about misinformation? Was it a smaller bag, or lighter weight, or fast and rugged boat AND fast assemling at the same time, or capability to stroll through urban streets and transit with a load of this kind? I have traveled with different folders (4 brands in total) in buses, trains, airplanes (and recently - a mailboat, with nearly 45 degree stairs that one has to climb, with all that jazz). Would be interesting to hear other people's share of experience in such matters - may be you could share some? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> We all have our prejudices and preferences when it comes to boats, I guess. > I'm not sure how you get to 40-50 pounds from an original 24 pound (even if > you add your 10 pounds to that it's still only 34 pounds). Even I can carry 34 pounds on my back without risking injury. All packed folders weigh more than they advertise. I've heard of only one exception so far (not a Folbot, and not a Feathercraft eigher). Plus, there are inevitable accessories and gear even for a day trip - paddle, pump, PFD, dry pants/shirt/shoes, snack, water bottle, hat, sunblock, etc etc. If it is advertised as 24 lbs, you will be carrying between 40 and 50 lbs on a daytrip. Carrying 34 or 44 lbs in anatomically correct slim backpack is one thing. Carrying it in a bulky bag like that of Citibot (and Feathercraft backpack isn't any smaller) - something totally different. Taking it to public transit is a different thing again. Buses have steps. People don't give a way. Subway and train stations may have escalators not working. Lightrail etc rail cars may have a divider in the middle of the door. In days of my youth I used to take 45-50 lbs backpack to buses, subways and suburban trains on Friday afternoon. When we are young, any challenge becomes a fun, but I wouldn't perceive it as fun now. I recall, people around me where not too happy as well (it showed). Comments on the "exceeded quota of misinformation" in this regard may command any respect only when coming f rom people with recent experience in stunts of this kind and knowing actual weight of their folders and accessories. The more boats and brands - the merrier for us, customers. When Folbot or somebody else comes up with 10-12 ft * 25" at 25 lbs (REAL 25 lbs) folder that can be assembled/dissembled REPEATEDLY in under 15 minutes and without significant efforts or much thinking, I will be the first to buy it for local daytrips. Though, by that time I will probably figure out the way to store my hardshell closer to my condo, and there will be no need in a folder for local daytrips . The closest model now is Feathercraft K-light, 10 ft * 25" at 33 lbs advertised weight. This is an overnighter fora light paddler. It's real weight is over 40 lbs, and the backpack, albeit a good one, is same bulky as the one in Folbot Citibot. Assembling time is allegedly 20 minutes - can't comment on this, as have never assembled it. And this is another dirty little secret of folders manufacturers - they all understate the assembling time. Another close model is Puffin Sport 10.5 ft * 29" at 17 lbs advertised (don't know real weight - probably around 20-22 lbs), packed size is small, but assembling time is is somewhat unpredctable and is reportedly about 30 minutes (you may inquire at www.foldingkayaks.org forum if you are interested, there are some Puffins over there). Then, there are inflatable kayaks like Inova Helios - slow, wide (though not as wide as the Citibot), the pack is pretty small, advertised weight is same 24 lbs, and must be close to its true weight, as iin inflatable there is nothing to hide or to add. Assembling time? There is no assembling in inflatables, per se. Just pumping. As you can see, there is no ideal daytrip folder. May be this is why some people are collecting folders. Though, I don't quite understand the need in a LOCAL daytrip folder when living in a waterfront property, or in a walking distance to paddle-able waterway where you can use a cart, or in a driving distance to it (say, under 2 hours) - unless your car is a convertible. >From my point of view, inflatable kayak like Helios will do things similar to that new Citibot, being more compact at that. And Puffing Sport will do about the same, being both more compact and lighter than Citibot, but it is less suitable for a spontaneous paddle - longer assembling time (again, I don't know the average assembling time of Citibot). These 2 models and few close analogs so far are the only boats used by "city people" for day paddle without much problems. Where this new Citibot will fit between the existing models? Don't know. Somewhere in the middle, I guess. I don't mind competition at all.The more boats and brands - the merrier for us, customers. My point was mostly that with anything over 20 lbs of ADVERTISED weight and with the bag of Feathercraft or Citibot size you can't just "toss it over your shoulder" and take a public transit joyfully as the manufacrurer's sales pitch implies - or if you can, then you shouldn't expect much of such a boat. PS: I have cut the single shoulder strap from my 2 folders bags (2 different brands, one I have sold, one still own), for the following reasons: 1) It is not wise to toss a bulky 40-50 lbs bag over one shoulder and carry it. Such a weight, especially in a bulky package, should be carried in a backpack, and for extended distances should not be carried at all - some cart should be used. 2) This long single strap tends to catch door handles and similar when you expect this the least. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> for local daytrips . The closest model now is Feathercraft K-light, 10 ft * > 25" at 33 lbs advertised weight. Correction - FC K-Light is 13 ft long, not 10 ft. My mistake, sorry. Overnight/weekend boat. Though, for somebody under 160 lbs it is an expediton boat up to one week (loading/unloading a week worth of cargo will be a pain). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Alex pointed out that folders weigh more than advertized, and I would add that the difference between a reasonably equipped folder and their advertised weight is big: Our Klepper XXL, with sprayskirt, painter, anchor, anchor line, decklines, bilge-pump (with a big battery), sea anchor, reserve paddle, GPS, paddles, seats, emergency pack, and sundries, weigh close to twice as much as advertized. But I am happy with that. And the packing bags are fairly heavy as well, and not easy to handle. We nowadays put ours in our tiny trailer (the smallest we've found on the market - just the right size!), and have found that it is far easier to pack them into the trailer, than in a car, no matter what size (as long as there is room enough, that is)! Assembly time sometimes is close to that advertised (just 5 minutes longer), but often twice, or thrice, that! Tord -- See Exclusive Video: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/younghollywoodawards2008/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> the difference between a reasonably equipped > folder and their advertised weight is big: Our Klepper XXL, > with sprayskirt, painter, anchor, anchor line, decklines, > bilge-pump (with a big battery), sea anchor, reserve paddle, > GPS, paddles, seats, emergency pack, and sundries, weigh close > to twice as much as advertized. But I am happy with that. > > And the packing bags are fairly heavy as well, and not easy > to handle. ...............> > Assembly time sometimes is close to that advertised (just 5 minutes longer), > but often twice, or thrice, that! You forgot to mention boat cart - 6-7 lbs and up. I wish it were just accesories, some of which could be neglected for a short day paddling in protected waters like mentioned previously as possible uses of that new Folbot - anchor, GPS, battery for a bilge pump, cart or even sprayskirt. What pisses me off is that manufacturers don't usually include even seats in the boat weight. Not to mention the bags - and, yes, bags are heavy. FC backpack weighs 6 lbs. 3 bags of Longhaul single MK1 weigh 8 lbs in total (3lbs and 4 lbs skin and frame bags, and 1 lb small ribs bag). You can toss it all in some 1.5 lb thin nylon bag or a backpack with el-cheapo shoulder straps, but I wouldn't trust such a bag even in a subway or bus, not to mention airline luggage. Not to mention a single-strap bag - this is just ridiculous when the bag weighs over 30 lbs and has a size of a decent suitcase. True, most folder owners don't care about their boats weight and bags weight and size as they never take their boats to bus, train or subway, and seldom take them to airplanes (and then to self-supported trip where they would have to carry all the packing bags on board). Some folders like Klepper or Folbot GII simply don't have analogs in hardshell version, so I can understand why people with plenty of storage room are buying them. Twice or thrice the specified time - hah, I hear your, brother! When I referred to FC Kahuna 2 hours assembling in Exumas, it was not for boasting about expensive brand - people that can't afford it, don't have to buy, this isn't any necessity, though I'm positive that most on this mail-list can. It was merely to illustrate that fatique, too hot or too cold weather, and less than ideal ground do contribute, and significantly. On an average day I can't usually manage this under 25-30 minutes (and many people - under 40), even though the demostration FC video shows this done in under 20 minutes. Post-2005 FC models are few minutes faster to assemble, though - due to built-in cockpit, but just a few minutes. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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