Point of no return is in aeronautics, the point where there is no turning back, and is a very important idea, that can well be applied to paddling, and a lot of other endeavors. The trick is to be aware of when you've reached it and do the right thing - not always easy! As a group leader the hardest job can be to decide that it is time to abort a trip (due to weather, wind, participants less than prime physique/skill, equipment failure, et cetera), as some in the group will think that it just too early, due to ego, invested money/time, et cetera, while others might well be so far beyond the point where they can reason clearly, due to exhaustion, hypothermia, et cetera, that they too can come to the same conclusion. How do you handle such incidences?! Do you let the group split up, or what?! Tord -- See Exclusive Video: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/younghollywoodawards2008/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Point of no return applies as well to hiking. The trick is to figure out when to turn around in order to return to the trailhead by the appointed time. If miscalculation or no calculation occurs, one may have the opportunity to spend the night in the cold, dark, wet woods, and possibly drive some friends and family frantic. Has anyone ever spent an unplanned night in the wilderness? Brad On Friday, May 09, 2008 5:33 AM Tord wrote > Point of no return is in aeronautics, the point where there is no turning > back, > and is a very important idea, that can well be applied to paddling, and > a lot of other endeavors. The trick is to be aware of when you've reached > it > and do the right thing - not always easy! > > > As a group leader the hardest job can be to decide that it is time to > abort a trip (due to weather, wind, participants less than prime > physique/skill, equipment failure, et cetera), as some in the group > will think that it just too early, due to ego, invested money/time, > et cetera, while others might well be so far beyond the point where > they can reason clearly, due to exhaustion, hypothermia, et cetera, > that they too can come to the same conclusion. > > How do you handle such incidences?! > > Do you let the group split up, or what?! > > Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tord S. Eriksson wrote: > As a group leader the hardest job can be to decide that it is time to > abort a trip (due to weather, wind, participants less than prime > physique/skill, equipment failure, et cetera), as some in the group > will think that it just too early, due to ego, invested money/time, > et cetera, while others might well be so far beyond the point where > they can reason clearly, due to exhaustion, hypothermia, et cetera, > that they too can come to the same conclusion. > > How do you handle such incidences?! > > Do you let the group split up, or what?! If I am the leader, I insist all remain together until anyone who is incapacitated is safely on shore, accompanied by a buddy who is not impaired. Those are the only circumstances in which I would split the party because of inability to paddle with the others. Sometimes I will allow a split of there is a competent leader to handle the other bunch, and conditions are benighn. BTW, if I am not aware some are becoming hypothermic well before they are impaired, I have failed as a leader (or, one of my helpers has). I should be communicating with everyone as we go, checking affect, responsiveness, and attitude, so I do not get surprised with a situation like that. The above applies under normal circumstances. In desperate circumstances, I'd have to decide then what to do. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Tord S. Eriksson <tord_at_mindless.com> wrote: > > How do you handle such incidences?! > > Do you let the group split up, or what?! > > The "point of no return" for an aircraft is generally for a flight over water or where there are no suitable emergency landing places (like the arctic or large desert area) and has to do with available fuel. It's the point at which you *must* continue on as turning around will surely result in running out of fuel and a subsequent emergency landing. But it's not always a fuel issue: The "point of no return" for General Billy Mitchel and his group of B-25s that flew on a mission from aircraft carriers in the north Pacific across Japan and landed in China was immediately upon takeoff. There was no return for those bombers to the aircraft carriers from which they launched. So the "point of no return" might not be halfway to your destination. The "point of no return" for some kayakers might be just after the launch where strong currents may soon preclude a return to that beach. Or it might be when the tide changes. In other words, kayakers may face that "point" sooner than they think. Since I most often paddle solo, I don't have a lot of experience in keeping a group together. But recognizing the "point" is probably a good idea that lots of us don't think about in any specific way. If we think about it during trip planning - even if we're just standing on the beach - it gives us a chance to think through our "escape plan". We may have only minutes available to return to that spot... or we might not be able to at all. Whatever the case, if we recognize the issue early we can deal with it better if there is an urgent ("drat, I left all the food in the trunk") reason to get back. A perfect example of "point of no return" in Puget Sound is the commonly taken Anacortes (Washington Park) paddle to Friday Harbor via the southern end of Lopez Island and Cattle Pass. This is a popular paddle for clubs because the ferry ride from Friday Harbor (on San Juan Island) to Anacortes is free of charge. It involves making use of the sometimes brisk tidal currents and also involves timing those currents to ride the ebb to the area off Cattle Pass (the southern passage between San Juan Island and Lopez Island) where one then wants the flood to move the group north through the pass and on to Friday Harbor. The "point of no return" for this trip is almost certainly when they move into the current in Rosario Strait and it becomes difficult or impossible to paddle back (even to Skyline Marina). One is pretty much committed from there on until Mackay Harbor at the southern tip of Lopez Island (where most paddlers on this trip pause for lunch and to await the flood). But when it comes to tidal currents, the "point of no return" can become a movable point. Consider the Anacortes to Friday Harbor trip. If you simply *must* return to your launch point you can simply wait for the current to change direction; which, inevitably, it will. Nice point to be brought up and thought over, Tord. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I used to hunt with a Special Forces guy. We could both read maps and terrain well so it made for a fun partnership. He taught me something I have never heard anywhere else which was always have a panic azimuth. This amounted to pretty much a cardinal direction. When everything goes wrong what direction do you go so you can get back? We hunted the same area consistently so our panic azimuth was East. This would bring us back to a highway where we could turn right and eventually end up back in the campground parking lot. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim said: > He taught me something > I have never heard anywhere else which was always have a panic > azimuth. We do the same thing on the water. It's fairly easy for us, because depending on which part of the Southern California Coastline we are paddling, you can always either head north to hit the coast or east to hit it. Finding a decent landing spot maybe a bit more difficult though. Steve Holtzman __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3089 (20080509) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A point of no return is rare in sea kayaking in my understanding of the term. A building offshore gale where you venture out a bit too far, there's your point of no return. Not getting off the water at an avaliable haul-out and contiunuing down an exposed coast with high wind and waves due part way before the next haul-out or the one you passed prior, could be a point of no return once you pass that first egress despite forecast warnings or whatever. Sometimes a point of no return isn't one you can reasonably forcast or forsee enough to stop you dead in your tracks, but then we are now into measured risk, which we all have differing tolerances for and levels we're willing to accept. Tidal currents are obviously a point of no return instigator, and often get paddlers of all levels if unaccounted for. Developing jumbled water may be a point of no return for timid paddlers - while joy for others. So much is skill dependent. Where I tend to make my point of no return prognostications are in a group setting where there is just too much variability in paddling speed, ability to stay upright, equipment and outfitting differences, and variable levels of inhibiting anxiety. If I go too far im my car down a logging road I'll reach a point of no return with insufficient gas. When I bite off more ocean than I can chew, I slowly dehydrate, cramp up, fall into a caloric energy deficit perhaps, but may never reach an actual point of no return, as I'm either still willing to push myself, which in small ways, I enjoy. My point of no return is when I'm dead, which hasn't happened yet. Either luck or a certain wiliness has got me where I am, but that ain't necessarily good seamanship or responsibleness to others and community. I'm working on it. Doug L > Point of no return is in aeronautics, the point where there is no turning > back, > and is a very important idea, that can well be applied to paddling, and > a lot of other endeavors. The trick is to be aware of when you've reached > it > and do the right thing - not always easy! > > > As a group leader the hardest job can be to decide that it is time to > abort a trip (due to weather, wind, participants less than prime > physique/skill, equipment failure, et cetera), as some in the group > will think that it just too early, due to ego, invested money/time, > et cetera, while others might well be so far beyond the point where > they can reason clearly, due to exhaustion, hypothermia, et cetera, > that they too can come to the same conclusion. > > How do you handle such incidences?! > > Do you let the group split up, or what?! > > Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> A point of no return is rare in sea kayaking in my understanding of > the > term. > > Doug L > > > > > > Point of no return is in aeronautics, the point where there is no > turning > > back, > > and is a very important idea, that can well be applied to > paddling, and > > a lot of other endeavors. The trick is to be aware of when you've > reached > > it > > and do the right thing - not always easy! > > > > > > Tord The Point of No Return, in aviation, is a clearly defined one. Based on fuel on board, if I understand the term correctly. In many other endeavours, the PONR is not clearly defined. And may even be a meaningless term in some instances. I posit one example where a group is paddling across some distance of water in good weather. One of the paddlers suddenly, and without prior warning, develops a debilitating case of motion sickness and is unable to continue. I would suggest you are now *past* the PONR. And nothing much you can do about it except deal with the situation as best you can. In fact, one could say that as long as you *do* deal with it, and there is no loss of life, there was no real "no return" involved. You indeed did return, albeit not as you would have liked. But the concept is still worthwhile because it might instil in some paddlers an awareness of the situation they are in. Should they turn back? Make for an alternate landing? Press on? Call for help?.... While not a "no return" point, there are many "points" at which decisions need to be made, and it is all the better to be aware of the possibilities ahead of time. (I think.) If someone is injured or sick, what's the closest safe landing site? What is the best landmark to use to assist S&R to find you in the event of a rescue being required? Etc. Anything that helps generate a safety-oriented mindset is all the good, I say. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Very well said Darryl. Thank you! I guess for me, there is a PONR in the vernacular of my everyday paddling, but it's not necessarily a pejorative term or black and white notion even. Typically, it will be at a point where I have to make a commitment. An example might be a long transit in thick coastal fog with an unfriendly shoreline for the immediate future to beam which I don't want to have to head for if things get bad, but the point of land or island I've set off from isn't something I'm going to be able to return to too easily. As for general and specialized seamanship-related vigilance on a trip, I think this is what separates a good paddler from the rift-raft. A good paddler is always thinking ahead, always adjusting plans, mentally noting pull-out being passed - pocket beaches; always scanning the horizon keeping a weather eye open - or even one eye open if forecast reliability is keeping up with the coast. Playing the what if game, but in a state of relaxed mindfulness - part of the fun, part of the art, part of the preservation of self. The good paddler has already made allowance for sufficient number of days, etc; they have a buffer of time on their side if the windows of opportunity remain narrow. None of this is dependent on hard skills necessarily. When the red flags do go up, and you keep pushing it or pushing your mates, then we have a preventable incident or tragedy in the making or perhaps an unfortunate (read should have been unnecessary) rescue call having to be placed. I've gotten better at keeping a mental tally of the number and size of red flags and the rapidity at which they are coming and can now generally say if I get into serious trouble, it is entirely my own fault. I may have a bigger comfort zone for red flags. Other paddlers may not even tolerate or sanction one. Go no go decisions and get of the water now decisions are easy for them. I pull myself of the water mentally kicking and screaming - or sometimes ordered off the water. I'm more concerned with the paddler who is absolutely oblivious to red flags. These are often the ones who become sushi. Unlike some of my elitist friends in the higher echelons of the paddling community, I don't consider these paddlers idiots or stupid. They are just missing something in their thinking process. I'd like to find out more how and why and for what reasons there's this inability about those flapping flags. And I want to contribute something more than derisive commentary. My ying and yang are counterbalanced you see, but at extreme reaches of leverage. :-) And I do worry with these new SPOT devices out now in wider use...that paddlers will undertake more committing off season trips with them. I worry that they may use such devices to replace the necessarily more proportional skills, quality equipment, training, and experience in lieu of such devices. "Oh, I'm stuck now on this forsaken shoreline, my hatch covers lost to the surf that I threw in the cockpit. Dang. Where's that 911 button?" Maybe the paddler should have secured and made seaworthy his craft as a priority first. All this remains to be seen. The seas around my neck of the woods can seriously chew you up off season on the open coast. Relentlessly so. I know. I'm surprised I made it to 50. So, be patient grasshoppers, with unlimited time and patience you can transit any coast with enough time, but white people aren't that patient enough, it seems. That's probably another discussion though. Okay, back to my writing on someone who did die... DL >> A point of no return is rare in sea kayaking in my understanding of >> the >> term. >> >> Doug L >> >> >> >> >> > Point of no return is in aeronautics, the point where there is no >> turning >> > back, >> > and is a very important idea, that can well be applied to >> paddling, and >> > a lot of other endeavors. The trick is to be aware of when you've >> reached >> > it >> > and do the right thing - not always easy! >> > >> > >> > Tord > > The Point of No Return, in aviation, is a clearly defined one. Based > on fuel on board, if I understand the term correctly. > > In many other endeavours, the PONR is not clearly defined. And may > even be a meaningless term in some instances. I posit one example > where a group is paddling across some distance of water in good > weather. One of the paddlers suddenly, and without prior warning, > develops a debilitating case of motion sickness and is unable to > continue. I would suggest you are now *past* the PONR. And nothing > much you can do about it except deal with the situation as best you > can. > > In fact, one could say that as long as you *do* deal with it, and > there is no loss of life, there was no real "no return" involved. You > indeed did return, albeit not as you would have liked. > > But the concept is still worthwhile because it might instil in some > paddlers an awareness of the situation they are in. Should they turn > back? Make for an alternate landing? Press on? Call for help?.... > > While not a "no return" point, there are many "points" at which > decisions need to be made, and it is all the better to be aware of > the possibilities ahead of time. (I think.) > > If someone is injured or sick, what's the closest safe landing site? > What is the best landmark to use to assist S&R to find you in the > event of a rescue being required? Etc. > > Anything that helps generate a safety-oriented mindset is all the > good, I say. > > -- > Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. 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