The B25's could not return to the carrier and they could not land on the carrier in any case. They could just barely take off from the carrier. The plan was to fly to Japan, bomb targets and then fly to land in China. A Japanese fishing boat spotted the task force and radioed its position before it could be sunk. The B25's were lunched soon after a few hundred miles earlier than planned rather than risk the carriers. Canceling the operation was not considered seriously. One carrier, the Hornet launched the B25's, while the Enterprise provide cover. Since the B25's launched early very few of them actually landed in China. Most crashed when they ran out of fuel. A couple were shot down over Japan and some of the crews were beheaded. Since the planes launched earlier than planned, even if they had wanted/planned to return to the carriers, they did not have the fuel. Later, Dan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I always thought "a point of no return" just means you are past the half way point, so it is a shorter distance to your destination then to return to your starting point. In kayaking, if you are paddling over open ocean from the mainland to an Island, and you pass the half way point and the weather turns bad, you are better off continuing to the Island (depending on wind direction of course) then you are trying to return to the mainland. Same situation in aviation. Mike Kory In a message dated 5/9/2008 6:02:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, douglloyd_at_shaw.ca writes: A point of no return is rare in sea kayaking in my understanding of the term. A building offshore gale where you venture out a bit too far, there's your point of no return. Not getting off the water at an avaliable haul-out and contiunuing down an exposed coast with high wind and waves due part way **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't think the example of the General Mitchel B-25's taking off from the aircraft carrier is a actually a point of no return. I'm sure it's true that the bombers could not land on the carrier after taking off, but the crews probably could have bailed out near the carrier and been picked up, so they could still "return" if they were so inclined. However, once the bombers took off, I'm sure the carrier turned around and headed to a safe harbor as fast as possible, and at some point the distance back to the carrier was greater than the remaining fuel, which is a true "point of no return." Mike Kory In a message dated 5/9/2008 9:41:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, crjungers_at_gmail.com writes: The "point of no return" for General Billy Mitchel and his group of B-25s that flew on a mission from aircraft carriers in the north Pacific across Japan and landed in China was immediately upon takeoff. There was no return for those bombers to the aircraft carriers from which they launched. So the "point of no return" might not be halfway to your destination. **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You can always bail out... if that were the criteria then there would never be a point of no return. The term refers to the aircraft - with its contents - returning. With the B-25 mission there was never that option. Once they were halfway down that carrier deck they were committed to the entire mission. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 10:22 PM, <MJKory_at_aol.com> wrote: > I don't think the example of the General Mitchel B-25's taking off from > the aircraft carrier is a actually a point of no return. I'm sure it's true > that the bombers could not land on the carrier after taking off, but the > crews probably could have bailed out near the carrier and been picked up, so > they could still "return" if they were so inclined. However, once the > bombers took off, I'm sure the carrier turned around and headed to a safe > harbor as fast as possible, and at some point the distance back to the > carrier was greater than the remaining fuel, which is a true "point of no > return." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] If you bail out over the ocean, miles from rescue with your location unknown, you will probably drown or die of hypothermia. So, in that case I think bailing out would be a point of no return. If your definition of PONR (aircraft with contents returning) is the official definition of PONR, then I guess I can't argue with you, but it seems logical to me that the expression refers to the option open to the human, not the plane. Mike Kory, So. Cal. In a message dated 5/10/2008 10:44:16 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, crjungers_at_gmail.com writes: You can always bail out... if that were the criteria then there would never be a point of no return. The term refers to the aircraft - with its contents - returning. With the B-25 mission there was never that option. Once they were halfway down that carrier deck they were committed to the entire mission. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] Tord, Do a Google search on Group Think and you will come up with some ideas. Ken In a message dated 5/9/2008 5:38:43 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, tord_at_mindless.com writes: As a group leader the hardest job can be to decide that it is time to... How do you handle such incidences?! Do you let the group split up, or what?! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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