I'll poke my bow into the discussion on H29 for a moment, having seen all the ABYC materials come through over the years while they were developed. It is voluntary for any manufacturer to participate, the ABYC is not the US Coast Guard. The ABYC has done a lot of standardization in yachts, so if Seda went into 50 foot powerboats, it's still voluntary for us to follow ABYC guidance on how to wire the engine up, but if there's a problem with said wiring a window for liability has been opened. For power boat buyers, that's important due to the complexity of the product. With kayaks you'll likely see in the marketing materials if a boat is H29 compliant or not (eg the CD Suka discussion) The concept was to define certain safety and/or measurements in the industry. If meeting a guideline is important to you, you'll only buy a boat with that certification. For touring sea kayaks, the H29 has an exception as noted, so the layback roll has not been regulated out. You may begin to see some standardization on load and volume measurements though, as there are strict definitions of these metrics. To be blunt, H29 is all about recreational kayaks. Consider all the quasi-sit in kayaks on the rack at Costco. These typically have no internal bulkheads, and the massive cockpits do not allow the paddler to skirt up, if a skirt was even available. These are picked up while heading to checkout for many folks, with little understanding of what's required for safe paddling, and they head straight out to sea with them. It's in the interest of touring kayak manufacturers to push for such a guidance, which is why it's been implemented (disclaimer, it wasn't something Seda played a part in) Off topic, Russian speakers must find some humour at "suka" as a boat name. John Seda Kayaks *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 9:07 AM, John Gish - Seda Products < john_at_sedakayak.com> wrote: > I'll poke my bow into the discussion on H29 for a moment, having seen all > the ABYC materials come through over the years while they were developed. One of the great things about Paddlewise is the depth of knowledge displayed by the participants. :) > It is voluntary for any manufacturer to participate..... .....but if > there's a problem ..... > ..... a window for liability has been opened. I snipped this but I don't believe it's "out of context"... but let's hold on to the idea of liability for a minute. > > For touring sea kayaks, the H29 has an exception as noted, so the layback > roll > has not been regulated out. You may begin to see some standardization on > load and volume measurements though, as there are strict definitions of > these metrics. The wording of the exception is somewhat ambiguous. It looks as though it applies to sea kayaks but then defines boats that fall under it as "white water". Let's keep this thought in mind too. To be blunt, H29 is all about recreational kayaks. Consider all the > quasi-sit in kayaks on the rack at Costco. These typically have no internal > bulkheads, and the massive cockpits do not allow the paddler to skirt up, > if > a skirt was even available. Matt Broze might take exception to the idea that internal bulkheads might be a safety requirement... but that was just a passing thought. :) These little bathtub boats sold at Costco, Wal-Mart and even my local farm supply store sure are scary looking. No one would argue with an attempt to differentiate a well-designed and manufactured kayak over one of those. After all, in the mind of many (if not most) in the general population if it looks like a kayak and paddles like a kayak... well it must be a kayak. So, from a marketing standpoint it's easy to see why a manufacturer like Current Designs would want to include a reference to H-29. I'm no designer, but I suspect that there is more to a kayak design than simply volume and length/width ratios.The problem problem I have with ABYC setting standards for the safe design of a kayak - even with a poorly written exception - is that it can so easily become a de facto rule because of the way the interplay between the insurance industry and manufacturers works (so aptly described by Dave Kruger). If your company was told that unless it designed all its kayaks to the "accepted standard" or lose your liability (there's that word again) coverage then I'd guess you'd find it difficult not to comply. As long as we're being blunt, I have to say that I'd trust the ABYA more if they had used a better definition in their exception. The Current Designs boat (and I'm looking at the reviews now) doesn't look like a Costco special; it looks like a high performance low-volume (20-1/2 inch beam) skegged kayak. The "manufacturer's response" includes this wording: "This efficiency translates into rapid acceleration..... and wave catching/riding ability." It also mentions roll and rescue in the same breath. Call me a skeptic but I'm thinking that Costco doesn't even try to market its "kayaks" as superior wave catching boats. Certainly not with a straight face. I can't see that the H-29 "standard" does anything to differentiate the Suka from those el cheapo recreational boats. The difference is obvious to almost everyone. What the H-29 standard does do, apparently, is prevent full layback rolls in an otherwise high performance low-volume kayak. So in this instance it appears that the H-29 kayak "standards", voluntary or not, has caused at least one major kayak manufacturer to create a boat that has the "unfortunate result" (words directly from the manufacturer's response) of being difficult to do a full layback roll in. The Suka should have fallen into that "white water" exception. Except that, for their own reasons, CD chose not avail themselves of that exception. Maybe I'm an elitist (runs and hides the Loon 111 under a tarp) but I've got a bad feeling about this. Kayaks may not be as complex mechanically as power boats but the subtle connection between paddler, boat and water is certainly complex. I'm no kayak designer but I suspect that there is more to it than simple volume versus width/length ratios. Off topic, Russian speakers must find some humour at "suka" as a boat name. My wife and I named our cruising sailboat "Kibitka" which seemed appropriate. Naming a high performance kayak "the bitch" might also be cool; ignoring some of the other implications of the word. Which, again, makes me wonder why they didn't avail themselves of the white water exception. Thanks for your input, John. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John and all, I work in an industry where the following standardization labs are seen: ASI, UL, CSA, ETL, CE, ATEX, GOST, ABS, NSF, API, MSHA, NFPA?and USCG. I know what each does and what the acronym stands for but?that is not germaine to my opinion that they all are an approval mafia that can overstep their bounds and increase the burden throughout an entire supply chain. On many levels I'm ok with that. I want the USCG inspecting vessels. I want UL to do independent tests on hazardous location electrical products. I want the Common Europe standards to bring the electrical bits into conformity for their community. Alot of them are experts at what they do and want to standardize their community to excellence. Alot of them are fat and lazy organizations that cost you and me time and money and offer little but their protection racket liability gig.?Every bureaucracy once formed wants more. More and more. UL now does file maintenance which has vastly increased the costs of the independent tests they keep for manufacturers. There are alot of complaints from many prominent players and the people who pay for their stuff. I don't know what ABYC does for the kayak community. A rec boat is designed to be tilted on its side and laid against a wall of the house for 364 days a year. On?the other?day it is meant to tip over, fill with water, sink and make the guy in cotton sweatshirt, jeans and cowboy boots swim to shore to think long and hard about what he just did. If he can make it. ABYC will do nothing for him or you as a manufacturer. They are another bureaucracy staffed by inexact people with their hands in your pocket (that you pass on tho the consumer)?that bring nothing to the table. The lawyer of the family for the guy who doesn't make it to shore will sleep easily whether or not H-29 or ABYC is on the job. Good luck! Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This thread must have started somewhere in Digests numbers 3215 through 3224 which I didn't get and have yet to see. When the ABYC was first starting the process I volunteered to be part of a committee of kayakers interested in the subject. Having the reputation as being both a kayak safety "expert" and a kayak manufacturer I thought I might be able to make a valuable contribution to the process. Also, having seen what they had done so far I was sure they were going to really blow it. They, or some in the kayak trade group working with them, had asked for volunteers but apparently I was not an acceptable volunteer for some reason as I never heard from them again after volunteering. I got the impression from reading the notes from the early ABYC committee meetings that mentioned the "kayak problem" back then that they were just looking for ways to get those "sea fleas" off the water and out of their way and had decided that they might be able to regulate them away if they took over jurisdiction and started adding new rules. That said, some of the Rec kayaks sold at the big box stores are absolutely scary. I've tried to talk to a couple of folks in the paddle departments of those stores about their kayaks lack of flotation and asked them why they don't also at least sell float bags with those kayaks or even just carry flotation for them in the store. They seemed to not even understand there might be a problem. They may have a point, "They sell canoes don't they". Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: >This thread must have started somewhere in Digests numbers 3215 through 3224 >which I didn't get and have yet to see. > > On the PaddleWise signup page - http://www.paddlewise.net/signup.html Subscribers to PaddleWise may retrieve back issues of archived discussions that do not appear on this website. For instructions on how to retrieve back issues of PaddleWise discussions, click on this link <http://www.paddlewise.net/getarchives.html> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: >This thread must have started somewhere in Digests numbers 3215 through 3224 >which I didn't get and have yet to see. > > > So, Matt... I was wondering if you received all those "missing digests" that I sent you? Never heard from you. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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