I am asking this sincerely - not just because there have been no serious controversies on Paddlewise lately. What do you folks feel are the advantages of crank shaft kayak paddles? I'm old and not interested in learning too many new tricks, so I have never used one. The reasons I have been given for them include: Better angle of attack for the blade entering the water Longer reach Less strain on the wrists or elbows or both I have watched elite paddlers in slalom and sprint racing for many years. There was a time when most slalom paddlers used crooked paddles. But now it's not as many. Never have I seen a sprint racer use one. My thought is that the Olympic caliber paddlers will do whatever it takes to gain an advantage and/or to avoid injury. If they don't all use crankshaft paddles, why should anyone? I can imagine an argument that says the advantage must be in whitewater where all kinds of things need to be done with the blades as opposed to sprint where it only a perfect forward stroke and nothing else. But then that would take away the three reasons I listed above because sprint racers want a better angle, longer reach and less strain. I ask not for myself, but because my students (sea kayak) see good paddlers using croooked paddles and think they should do the same if only to follow the fashion. No one follows my example, maybe because old guys aren't impressive paddlers. Or maybe it's just me. Thanks in advance. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
James wrote: > What do you folks feel are the advantages of crank shaft kayak paddles? > The reasons I have been given for them include: > > [1] Better angle of attack for the blade entering the water > > [2] Longer reach > > [3] Less strain on the wrists or elbows or both > > I have watched elite paddlers in slalom and sprint racing for many > years. There was a time when most slalom paddlers used crooked paddles. > But now it's not as many. Never have I seen a sprint racer use one. > > My thought is that the Olympic caliber paddlers will do whatever it > takes to gain an [A] advantage and/or to [B] avoid injury. If they > don't all use crankshaft paddles, why should anyone? Jim, I recently acquired one. I'll be 64 in November. Been a wrist tendinitis puppy for years. It is all about [3] for me. As to the Olympic caliber folks, my guess is that [A} massively trumps [B]. At my skill and strength level, I can not sense any advantage in speed or punch. It is all about [3] for me. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Crankshafts feel weird to me. If my wrists ever give out I'll try one. > No one follows my example, maybe because > old guys aren't impressive paddlers. Or maybe it's just me. As old guys and impressive paddlers go, Jim, you're both. Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 6:27 AM, James <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> wrote: > > What do you folks feel are the advantages of crank shaft kayak paddles? Well, first of all, white water paddling, sprint racing, and sea kayaking all ask different things from a paddle. I don't do much white water any more but I don't remember actually paddlling much when on a river. I do remember drifting along a lot between rapids. So much of this is subjective but I'm with Steve Cramer in that bent-shaft paddles just feel weird to me, too. My wife paddles with one and so does Pam but only Pam actually went out and got one on purpose (my wife's came with a second hand Solander she bought). I've used both of their paddles and I just prefer my straight-shaft Euros. I usually paddle with a high-angle, large blade Euro that's something less than 220cm in length. Probably because I'm comfortable with shorter paddles from w/w and I don't like change any more than anyone else. An old guy here, too, remember. I also paddle with a straight shaft wing paddle. Your students probably haven't noticed that most people paddling fast are now using wings (I lust after an Onno, myself) and virtually none of those are bent-shaft paddles. I wasn't too old to try that, at least, and I really like my wing. In a group it actually saves my joints because I don't have to paddle much to keep up with (or ahead of) the group. > No one follows my example, maybe because > old guys aren't impressive paddlers. Or maybe it's just me. > Ya, no one listens to us until it's too late. I've been in two real estate busts in my lifetime (Miami in the 60s and Seattle in the 70s) and people wonder why I say that real estate doesn't always go up. Oh wait, they don't wonder *now* but a year ago they thought I was crazy when I said that. I'm reminded of the drill rig superintendent who held up his hand and yelled at me, "I tol' you 5 times not to do that!" He only had 3 fingers on that hand. That's when I knew that experience counts for something. One thing we've done is have a "paddle fest" where everyone brings every paddle they own, marks it to identify it later, and then puts it in a pile so anyone in the group can use it. You might find that there are lots of choices among your friends' paddles and your students could take advantage of actually paddling with the different paddles. As opposed to someone just telling them what they should buy. For $400. Line up all your most experienced paddlers, crankshaft or not, and let the newbies quiz them on why they do what they do. And remember that no law says you have to only own one paddle. I bet I have a dozen. Looking at a bent-shaft paddle and thinking through the ergonomics, it just seems to me that the extra torque from the paddle at the end of the bent shaft would be more likely to translate into a rotation of the shaft which would be stopped by one's hands. That and the slight extra twist to brace. Not to mention those itty bitty blades on most of them. For what it's worth, virtually every expert paddler I know uses a straight shaft, high-angle paddle. Unless they use a GP. (Duane Strosaker and several CKF'ers being prominent exceptions.) I'm going to get some cedar and build a GP or two this fall myself. So now we'll hear from the expert paddlers who don't use a straight shaft, high-angle paddle telling me I'm wrong, huh? <grin> Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've paddled with Lendal modified cranks over the years for sea kayaking. I like them. That said, since I've always used a one piece whitewater paddle with a straight shaft I've pretty much reverted back to just a straight shaft. I'm currently experimenting with a 205 cm straight shaft, vari-lok set at 45 degrees. I hate switching feather more than length or shaft design and the length feels good in the higher volume river boat as well as tooling around in the sea. But the jury is still out and not expected back for months. Will let you know. Cheers, Rob G -----Original Message----- From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> To: James <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> Cc: paddlewise <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 5:52 pm Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle Types On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 6:27 AM, James <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> wrote: > > What do you folks feel are the advantages of crank shaft kayak paddles? Well, first of all, white water paddling, sprint racing, and sea kayaking all ask different things from a paddle. I don't do much white water any more but I don't remember actually paddlling much when on a river. I do remember drifting along a lot between rapids. So much of this is subjective but I'm with Steve Cramer in that bent-shaft paddles just feel weird to me, too. My wife paddles with one and so does Pam but only Pam actually went out and got one on purpose (my wife's came with a second hand Solander she bought). I've used both of their paddles and I just prefer my straight-shaft Euros. I usually paddle with a high-angle, large blade Euro that's something less than 220cm in length. Probably because I'm comfortable with shorter paddles from w/w and I don't like change any more than anyone else. An old guy here, too, remember. I also paddle with a straight shaft wing paddle. Your students probably haven't noticed that most people paddling fast are now using wings (I lust after an Onno, myself) and virtually none of those are bent-shaft paddles. I wasn't too old to try that, at least, and I really like my wing. In a group it actually saves my joints because I don't have to paddle much to keep up with (or ahead of) the group. > No one follows my example, maybe because > old guys aren't impressive paddlers. Or maybe it's just me. > Ya, no one listens to us until it's too late. I've been in two real estate busts in my lifetime (Miami in the 60s and Seattle in the 70s) and people wonder why I say that real estate doesn't always go up. Oh wait, they don't wonder *now* but a year ago they thought I was crazy when I said that. I'm reminded of the drill rig superintendent who held up his hand and yelled at me, "I tol' you 5 times not to do that!" He only had 3 fingers on that hand. That's when I knew that experience counts for something. One thing we've d one is have a "paddle fest" where everyone brings every paddle they own, marks it to identify it later, and then puts it in a pile so anyone in the group can use it. You might find that there are lots of choices among your friends' paddles and your students could take advantage of actually paddling with the different paddles. As opposed to someone just telling them what they should buy. For $400. Line up all your most experienced paddlers, crankshaft or not, and let the newbies quiz them on why they do what they do. And remember that no law says you have to only own one paddle. I bet I have a dozen. Looking at a bent-shaft paddle and thinking through the ergonomics, it just seems to me that the extra torque from the paddle at the end of the bent shaft would be more likely to translate into a rotation of the shaft which would be stopped by one's hands. That and the slight extra twist to brace. Not to mention those itty bitty blades on most of them. For what it's worth, virtually every expert paddler I know uses a straight shaft, high-angle paddle. Unless they use a GP. (Duane Strosaker and several CKF'ers being prominent exceptions.) I'm going to get some cedar and build a GP or two this fall myself. So now we'll hear from the expert paddlers who don't use a straight shaft, high-angle paddle telling me I'm wrong, huh? <grin> Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think something really innovative would be a Greenlander bent-shaft paddle. :-) The best of the two worlds. Just kidding. Rafael Mexico *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have been using Lendal modified-cranks for ten years now and wouldn't change back. I first used one at ASSC in Wales, where most paddlers, regardless of skill and/or experience were using them. I decided that it was a classic case of people following a trend, and thought they were very much a "British thing". The arguments as listed by James didn't cut much ice with me, as I had strong, healthy joints and a relaxed, perfect style :-) That was until I actually looked at my wrist angle while paddling in strong winds, and then my roll went on holiday, days before I was to sit my BCU Five Star test! I borrowed a crank and it felt great for the few days I had it so I bought one and have used them since. Straight-shafts now feel very agricultural and I find myself gripping them much tighter, potentially leading to strain. I have even fitted wing-blades to a Lendal shft, and use that in my race boat. Several people have borrowed the crank-shafts and would love to change, but their cost here is very high. When coaching people always ask about them and I simply pass them over before I explain their characteristics. Watching the Olympic slalom I noticed a few in use. Horses for courses, but they work for me. Cheers JKA John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula New Zealand ----- Original Message ----- From: "James" <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> To: "paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:27 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Paddle Types > > The reasons I have been given for them include: > > Better angle of attack for the blade entering the water > > Longer reach > > Less strain on the wrists or elbows or both *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've had several paddles where the blades were bent at 90 degree angles. I don't recommend them. Mark -----Original Message----- I have been using Lendal modified-cranks for ten years now and wouldn't change back. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have a bent shaft AT and a bent shaft Werner Kalliste. They are very different, both excellent, and I choose one or the other based on whim. I have had the AT for about 10 years and the Kalliste about 2 years. A straight shaft now seems very unnatural to me. The first two reasons, angle of attack and reach make no sense. I never had any strain on wrists or elbows with straight shafts and don't with bent shafts. The bent shafts are more pleasant to paddle with for me. I would stop thinking and see if you like them. I also vastlly prefer either the AT or the Werner to the bent shaft Lendal. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "James" <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> >I am asking this sincerely - not just because there have been no serious > controversies on Paddlewise lately. > > What do you folks feel are the advantages of crank shaft kayak paddles? > > I'm old and not interested in learning too many new tricks, so I have > never used one. > > The reasons I have been given for them include: > > Better angle of attack for the blade entering the water > > Longer reach > > Less strain on the wrists or elbows or both > > I have watched elite paddlers in slalom and sprint racing for many > years. There was a time when most slalom paddlers used crooked paddles. > But now it's not as many. Never have I seen a sprint racer use one. > > My thought is that the Olympic caliber paddlers will do whatever it > takes to gain an advantage and/or to avoid injury. If they don't all > use crankshaft paddles, why should anyone? > > I can imagine an argument that says the advantage must be in whitewater > where all kinds of things need to be done with the blades as opposed to > sprint where it only a perfect forward stroke and nothing else. But > then that would take away the three reasons I listed above because > sprint racers want a better angle, longer reach and less strain. > > I ask not for myself, but because my students (sea kayak) see good > paddlers using croooked paddles and think they should do the same if > only to follow the fashion. No one follows my example, maybe because > old guys aren't impressive paddlers. Or maybe it's just me. > > Thanks in advance. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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