Dress for the water temperature, not for the air temperature. I've always thought this advice to be a bit of a paradox. This time of year, the water is very cold yet the air temperatures are comparatively warmer. If you dress for the water temp you are overdressed for the air temp. If you overdress inside your drysuit, your body will sweat. Your clothing will get soaked with sweat. Your wet garments will cause you to chill. You start out dressed for cold water, but end up prepared for neither. Thoughts? --------------------------------------------------------------- Please limit all email attachments sent to this address to a maximum of 0.5MB. All email attachments that are larger then 0.5MB will automatically be deleted. --------------------------------------------------------------- ICQ: 262152266, AIM: GlamourpetsD, MSN: [my email address], Yahoo Messenger: glamourpets --------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Derek wrote: > Dress for the water temperature, not for the air temperature. I've > always thought this advice to be a bit of a paradox. This time of year, > the water is very cold yet the air temperatures are comparatively > warmer. If you dress for the water temp you are overdressed for the air > temp. If you overdress inside your drysuit, your body will sweat. Your > clothing will get soaked with sweat. Your wet garments will cause you > to chill. You start out dressed for cold water, but end up prepared for > neither. If your dry suit, in combination with the sweated-up garments is not warm enough while you are out of the water, that arrangement will not be warm enough if you go in. You have at several options: 1. Don't paddle under those conditions. 2. Periodically change out of the sweaty stuff into dry stuff. 3. Learn the method of rotary cooling (e.g., rolling) and use it. 4. Acquire a breathable dry suit. 5. Paddle less vigorously. 6. Use a neck ring to allow venting at the neck while paddling vigorously, and remove the ring when you get to conditions in which you might capsize. 7. Avoid capsizing and wear fewer layers under the dry suit -- and take your chances. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Derek <glamourpets_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > Dress for the water temperature, not for the air temperature. I've always > thought this advice to be a bit of a paradox. This time of year, the water > is very cold yet the air temperatures are comparatively warmer. If you > dress for the water temp you are overdressed for the air temp. If you > overdress inside your drysuit, your body will sweat. Your clothing will get > soaked with sweat. Your wet garments will cause you to chill. You start > out dressed for cold water, but end up prepared for neither. Thoughts? > This is always the catch-22 of paddling. Everything depends upon the type of clothing you are using. First would be good undergarments next to your skin. I believe that the bottom layer should be skin-tight and form fitting. One thing I hate is when clothing under a drysuit rides up and/or wrinkles and causes a chafe point you can't get at. NRS hydroskin shirts are excellent for this but I have also been using Everlast poly tees (bought at Big 5 for about $10 each) with great success. Next layer is a fleece of either polypro or merino wool. I used to use a separate bottom and top but a few months back I bought a one-piece underliner from NRS in their bargain loft and it's wonderful. I then use a poly/wool mix or, if I can get them, pure merino wool socks. If water temp is close to freezing I add a thin merino wool sweater top with long sleeves. I'm not sure how long this will keep you warm in near-freezing water but I can tell you that standing waist-deep in water very close to freezing did not chill me in the least. The key to all this is the drysuit itself. The suit should be capable of passing moisture from the inside (your perspiration) to the outside but not passing moisture (rain, fog, etc.) from the outside to the inside. The first material to do this was Goretex but there are now several other versions of this fabric. If you just use a splash top or a rain suit or one of the older drysuits or a scuba drysuit you will end up with the problem you described (e.g.: cold and clammy). Kokatat, NRS, and Stohlquist are the major manufacturers of breathable drysuits. They range in price from about US$500 to US$1000 but can be purchased second hand at good discounts. I bought a Kokatat Goretex drysuit for my wife (with a men's relief zipper which women can use with a device) for $400. It looks to be brand new. So the process is one of dressing with clothing that is designed to wick moisture away from your body under a suit that is built using a material that will pass moisture out but not in. You can do most of this with a wetsuit farmer john and a drytop but I prefer a drysuit. I used a Kokatat drytop combined with their bib bottoms for years but always wondered if they would hold up under a re-entry due to the way the top and bottom are joined. And the final part of the puzzle is: don't wear cotton. Period! Merino wool is excellent and doesn't seem to smell like poly can after a few days of use. But polypro clothing is now available almost everywhere. Including Goodwill. I have my daughter, the Goodwill Queen, stay on the lookout for merino wool garments and it's amazing how many she's turned up. I was a skeptic 5 years ago too but was nagged into submission by Pam. I am now a believer. I am now a believer. I am... Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Or you could move to Orange County where all you have to worry about is what color board shorts to wear! -----Original Message----- This is always the catch-22 of paddling. Everything depends upon the type of clothing you are using. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: <I'm not sure how long this will keep you warm in near-freezing water but I can tell you that standing waist-deep in water very close to freezing did not chill me in the least.> The one thing I can add to this thread is to suggest that you should be sure how your drysuit -- or whatever you wear (or don't wear) -- will allow you to remain functional. Not "warm" -- not much can do that over time. But clear-headed and physically competent to effect your own rescue. And the only way to know this is to swim the gear in near-freezing water conditions -- in a controlled manner with backup, somewhere to warm up again, and dry, warm, clear-headed people in charge to make the judgement calls if you can't. We've had cold water symposia in the Chesapeake Bay area over the years that have been instructive in many ways -- "schoolhouse" sessions with people like our own Dr. Chuck Sutherland -- and actual in-water sessions where people who routinely paddled in wool or neoprene became believers in drysuits, and people who believed in drysuits modified their paddling habits in cold water scenarios. Compromised drysuit seals, less-than-adequate insulation, loss of control of hands, loss of good judgement -- all occurred in controlled, supervised conditions to skilled and seasoned paddlers who were pretty sure that the seals on their suits were good enough -- but who had never before actually tested them for 15 or 20 minutes. Bottom line -- all the ideas expressed in these threads are valid and proven out. But this isn't about Craig's survival capabilities or mine on any other respondent's: it's about your ability to maintain physical and mental control of a situation in which you separate from your kayak in cold water. It's about the gear that you use to retain control of your mind and your body in cold water. You won't be "warm", but your gear will help you control those situations -- at least for a time. Do you really know how much time that is? Have you ever tested your gear and your capacity to remain functional in cold water? On your own and 200 meters offshore isn't the best time for acquiring that kind of knowledge. Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Martin, Jack <martin.jack_at_solute.us> wrote: > > Do you really know how much time that is? Have you ever tested your > gear and your capacity to remain functional in cold water? On your own > and 200 meters offshore isn't the best time for acquiring that kind of > knowledge. > I am a proponent of the Dave Kruger system of cold water avoidance. If the water temperature is below about 80F then I'm not going to go (willingly) into it. I once went into Puget Sound at Cornet Bay (just inside Deception Pass) when I leaped off the bow of a friend's boat with the bow line in my hand just as the skipper put the boat into reverse. Despite total immersion I was out of the water so quickly that my wallet (in my back pocket) didn't even get damp. People watching the performance told me that they had experienced their own epiphany over this event. I understand there remains a secret druid shrine at Cornet Bay dedicated to "he who scrambles on water". But on a more serious note, I'm sure that knowing you only have 45 minutes or so at a certain water temperature is a handy reference but I'm not quite so sure of its value to you as you float there next to your kayak 200 meters offshore. Unless, of course, you know you can tow your kayak to shore in whatever time is available to you. Otherwise a paddler will simply have to deal with getting back into his/her kayak just as they have, no doubt, practiced on many occasions. The key is to not dilly-dally around, to practice enough so that your re-entry is second nature, and to dress for immersion using equipment that is available. Otherwise, as Kruger already pointed out, stay home. I have not always followed this advice but I'm just a slow learner. In my gear kit I have both pogies and gloves and I know that there are a lot of paddlers who like pogies (which are essentially mittens that fasten on the paddle shaft... one simply inserts a hand into them) because you get good contact with the paddle shaft. But in cold water your hands - which for me are the very first things to feel the cold - will be trying to get you back into your boat and not inserted into those warm pogies. Because of this I have always preferred gloves. But even gloves may not be adequate. I know I prefer gloves that give me good contact and feeling and these tend to be made of thinner material. Two weeks ago, paddling in water that froze over that night, I discovered that my hands got really cold even with my gloves on. And this was just with incidental immersion in the water; not prolonged. So, with all due respect to the people who have dedicated themselves to testing just how long they can remain functional in cold water, I'm going to trust their results and not spend much time lollygagging about in cold water. I'm going to wear the clothing that will allow me to wade into the water and "burp" my drysuit without feeling the cold. If that chills me at all I'm going to add a layer under the drysuit. I will wear gloves that are adequate to the conditions and I'll test them by dangling my hands in the water for a few minutes before I set out on a paddle. If my hands chill from that then I'm either not going to go or I'm going to get warmer gloves. I know that about this time of year a lot of us who live in places where it gets really cold in the winter get antsy to go paddling again. This means we have to deal with the warming air temperatures of spring combined with the water temperatures left over from winter. This combination kills a few paddlers every year and I'd rather not be one of them. So I take it seriously when I'm contemplating paddling on water that was ice a short while ago and might be again soon. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In the end, a drysuit with enough insulation underneath for long immersion times in colder winter water will typically mean it will be difficult to maintain a comfortable ambience with any amount of real exertion going on while paddling if there is some decent sunlight radiation hitting the fabric or if it is relatively humid and warm. For winter performance, I want my drysuit to provide adequate protection for fast re-entry scenarios. My wetsuit does the same job but as it can't replicate the full seal of a drysuit, there are issues to deal with upon initial immersion as well as post-immersion dampness often with diminishing returns that a drysuite gives a bit more lee way with. A drysuit also gives better protection out of the water too. I typically prefer my wetsuit for three season paddling as I can layer more to desire, peel-down if I want, and generally have better control over comfort levels. Deep winter I like my drysuit as well as for hell-bent shoulder season storm paddling. Either way, if I don't feel confident about my self rescue abilities or anticipate complex backup failures, I will often re-negotiate my paddling objectives and goals for that day. For summer paddling, a tightly-compactable, minimalist drysuit is nice to have along for unexpectedly rough crossing, etc. One that rolls up and takes up little space is the one you don't need to wear but will carry and is there if you need it while summer expedition. Me? I'm more interested in a good solid 10 minute widow of functional opportunity to complete fully successful self rescue outcomes, without dexterity loss and impairment of my fighting chances. After that, I deserve to maybe die, maybe not, maybe call in a rescue, maybe no one is there, maybe my equipment/immersion apparel isn't the problem...! Doug Lloyd not-so-sunny Victoria > Dress for the water temperature, not for the air temperature. I've always > thought this advice to be a bit of a paradox. This time of year, the > water is very cold yet the air temperatures are comparatively warmer. If > you dress for the water temp you are overdressed for the air temp. If you > overdress inside your drysuit, your body will sweat. Your clothing will > get soaked with sweat. Your wet garments will cause you to chill. You > start out dressed for cold water, but end up prepared for neither. > Thoughts? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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