A 71-ft commercial fishing boat sank in rough weather off Cape May,NJ yesterday. One survivor and 2 dead and 4 missing. The boat sank around 5 am but a search didn't begin until 7:30 am and search aircraft didn't arrive on the scene until about 8:30 am. The one survivor said all the men had time to put on neoprene survival suits. It is not clear from the story that the men did in fact do that. Water temp 40 oF and waves 10-15 ft. Such commercial fishermen are unlikely to routinely wear drysuits. USCG search and rescue personnel do wear such outfits on the water. They came and showed off their gear at our cold water workshop in Norwalk, CT at the end of January this year. There are all kinds of wetsuits out there for windsurfers, Kiteboarders, sea kayakers etc. Flatwater racers still refuse to wear any such gear as far as I know. So here is a question. What is the best wetsuit of any material that might be worn routinely by working personnel on boats at sea or by racers that are training hard, that would at least give them some edge against the shock of sudden immersion in cold water. Such an outfit would ideally give them enough time to do effective things to lengthen survival times and get emergency messages out. What is the nature of the "Chill cheaters" material? Chuck Sutherland Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck Sutherland wrote: So here is a question. What is the best wetsuit of any material that might be worn routinely by working personnel on boats at sea or by racers that are training hard, that would at least give them some edge against the shock of sudden immersion in cold water. Such an outfit would ideally give them enough time to do effective things to lengthen survival times and get emergency messages out. ------------------________________ My understanding is that commercial deck crew routinely wear some sort of "anti-exposure suit" -- the kind that Mustang and others make -- when on deck at sea in winter, Chuck. It's a one-piece, insulated, waterproof jumpsuit designed to keep the wearer less cold and less wet than he/she would otherwise be while working on deck, and it usually incorporates "float coat" type flotation in the insulation should the wearer go overboard: water intrusion is inevitable and quick, but somewhat controlled to give a partial "wetsuit" effect. In an emergency situation where abandoning the vessel or having it sink from under the crew is likely, they'd switch over to -- or probably add -- an "immersion suit" -- typically a heavy, usually cumbersome five mil neoprene suit with integral booties and sometimes mits, a waterproof zipper and neoprene gaskets wherever openings remained -- neck and maybe wrists. These aren't advertised as dry suits, but would provide some significant measure of protection and insulation, depending on a lot of things including air and water temperatures. In all likelihood, an emergency position-indicating radio beacon (EPIRB) of some type would be activated by the crew -- or automatically -- if the ship sank, so the idea of some poor bugger called "Sparks" sitting in a radio room somewhere tapping out a morse code distress signal as the ship slips beneath the waves is older than either of us, Chuck; the COSPAS-SARSAT system for identifying and localizing distress signals is a pretty efficient and well-developed system. (Although that might be belied by the length of time it took to lauch SAR in the case of your NJ fishing boat.) A lot of years ago, when I was flying CSAR for the Navy, we had a green flying drysuit with a heavy, one-piece insulated liner: the suit had a latex neck seal and wrist seals, and there was a snap-in, watertight (says here in the fine print) air valve that could feed warmed air through the suit and into the lining, which had a network of ventilation channels built into it. When it worked, it was great. When it didn't, yuck. Especially if we were flying with them over cold water with warm air temps. We called them "poopy suits"; they were replaced by neoprene wetsuits incorporated into flight suits, having a thermal layer inside the neoprene to provide some comfort while in flight or on deck. But a small shard of twisted metal can turn any drysuit into a wetsuit very quickly -- but a floppy and not a very effective wetsuit, at that. So it looks like survival experts are now trying for a max-min solution, assuming that suit seals will be compromised, trying to exclude water but adding as much flotation and insulation as possible. I've swum basic "anti-exposure" suits, and found them pretty effective in moderate water; the gouge is that they're capable of providing "survival" -- do not read comfort or body integrity at the extremities into that word -- for three hours in 40 degree weather. (My test was a lot more benign.) There are a lot of ancient Navy studies analyzing wetsuits and drysuits and their relative benefits, but, practically speaking, it looks like heavy, water-resistant, insulated, floatable immersion suits are the benchmark these days for a cold-water survival application. Better to assume any suit will leak and build it accordingly than hope that latex seals and dry insulation will work "in extremis". Jack "Joq" Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Martin, Jack wrote: > Chuck Sutherland wrote: > > So here is a question. What is the best wetsuit of any material that > might be worn routinely by working personnel on boats at sea or by > racers that are training hard, that would at least give them some edge > against the shock of sudden immersion in cold water. Such an outfit > would ideally give them enough time to do effective things to lengthen > survival times and get emergency messages out. > ------------------________________ > > My understanding is that commercial deck crew routinely wear some sort > of "anti-exposure suit" -- the kind that Mustang and others make -- when > on deck at sea in winter, Chuck. It's a one-piece, insulated, > waterproof jumpsuit designed to keep the wearer less cold and less wet > than he/she would otherwise be while working on deck, and it usually > incorporates "float coat" type flotation in the insulation should the > wearer go overboard: water intrusion is inevitable and quick, but > somewhat controlled to give a partial "wetsuit" effect. In an emergency > situation where abandoning the vessel or having it sink from under the > crew is likely, they'd switch over to -- or probably add -- an > "immersion suit" -- This is what Joq is talking about, I believe: http://www.mustangsurvival.com/immersion-suit/ http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products/product.php?id=419 Another variant: http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/4,367.html These are not worn "routinely" on commercial fishing vessels around here, because the working conditions with pots, trawls, and long line gear demand more mobility than some of these suits allow. In addition, ones designed for long-term survival in very cold water are heavy on insulation and not on puncture-resistance. They are intended for use when you are certain your vessel is sinking, and would be unbearably warm working on deck, in many cases. Note that ours is a _mild_ maritime climate, with air temps rarely below zero Celsius, and water temps in the 5-8 C range (40-45 F). In the Aleutians, it is a different story, and heavy gear would be the norm. IOW, professional mariners and commercial fishers where I live are stuck on the same dilemma Derek highlighted recently: too warm when working; maybe not warm enough when you go into the drink. None of these items address Chuck's question. I think the answer is that fishers do not wear anything like what Chuck describes; to do so would be regarded as "sissy" on deck, I think. Yes, it is an odd, old-school culture, which changes slowly. It has taken 30 years to get these guys to carry survival suits, which are now mandatory. My fiance' works for a major west coast supplier to the trade (Englund Marine), and fishermen b*tch long and loud at the cost of the mandatory safety gear. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote -- This is what Joq is talking about, I believe: http://www.mustangsurvival.com/immersion-suit/ http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products/product.php?id=419 Another variant: http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/4,367.html These are not worn "routinely" on commercial fishing vessels around here, because the working conditions with pots, trawls, and long line gear demand more mobility than some of these suits allow. In addition, ones designed for long-term survival in very cold water are heavy on insulation and not on puncture-resistance. They are intended for use when you are certain your vessel is sinking, and would be unbearably warm working on deck, in many cases. Note that ours is a _mild_ maritime climate, with air temps rarely below zero Celsius, and water temps in the 5-8 C range (40-45 F). ____________ Just to be clear, I cited "anti-exposure suits" as gear that is frequently worn on deck during cold weather -- shown at http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products/product.php?id=293. I agree that the "immersion suits" Dave linked above would be impossible to wear for anything other than emergency abandonment of ship -- which is how I described them. My experience is that "anti-exposure suits" are functionally similar to work coveralls like Carhartts (e.g., http://www.carhartt.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalog Id=10101&storeId=10051&productId=32199&langId=-1&categoryId=10908), but are more water-resistant and often use insulation that also serves as dry insulation on deck but can serve as flotation and insulation for unintended swims. I think we're saying the same thing, essentially -- but I'd hate to try to paddle a kayak while wearing either of them! Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > None of these items address Chuck's question. I think the answer is that > fishers do not wear anything like what Chuck describes; to do so would be > regarded as "sissy" on deck, I think. Yes, it is an odd, old-school > culture, which changes slowly. It has taken 30 years to get these guys to > carry survival suits, which are now mandatory. My fiance' works for a major > west coast supplier to the trade (Englund Marine), and fishermen b*tch long > and loud at the cost of the mandatory safety gear. > > I have to say that my experience with many years of deck work on everything from salmon trollers to offshore drill ships to Exxon oil tankers makes me tend to agree with Dave. The macho mindset of people who work on the ocean can be counterproductive to safety. Add to this the simple fact that almost all vessels (including ocean-going ships) are crewed only to barely meet their daily operations; the loss of just one deck crewmember can cripple their day-to-day operations. Imagine what a loss of a few people would do in an emergency. The Exxon Valdez, as an example, was the largest tanker in US operation and carried fewer than 25 crew. Contrast that with a built-in-1956 Exxon ship I sailed on in the 1990s which was 1/4 the size (in tonnage) and was certified to carry 56 crew members. In the 1990s we ran it with 20 crew members. I called the deck that would have housed all those then-vanished people the "lost city of the Lexington". The engineers used those quarters as spare parts storage. Add to this the fact that many of these crews only receive on-the-job training and they may have only once donned the "gumby" emergency survival suits and even then it was probably in the office or warehouse and not under the cramped conditions of a vessel in a seaway. And fishing boat crews are notorious for being perpetually exhausted from overwork and lack of sleep. These people also tend to be "results oriented" and their first inclination is to solve the problem not get into survival mode. Worse yet, it's very difficult to know just where that line is between a ship that can be fixed and a ship that is doomed to sink. It's just hard to tell and easy to deny. The work suits that Jack Martin describes are commonly worn by deck crew on the factory ships operating out of Dutch Harbor but even these have their drawbacks (too warm on deck if you're working hard and way too warm below deck). Even so, a factory fishing trawler will have nearly 100 people as crew but as few as 20 of these will have insulated worksuits or even go out on deck. The rest work below in the factory, galley, or offices and are not encouraged to go outside. Off duty crew may only realize the ship is sinking when they are awakened by the awkward angle. And the lighting may have failed by then. Making their way to where the gumby suits are stored can be problemmatic. Getting one on can be impossible. And all the time your brain is screaming, "GET OUT!!!" In 1998 we had no "work suits" on Exxon tankers even though we commonly operated in and out of Valdez, Homer, Kenai, and Anchorage, Alaska. We did have gumby suits, however. There is no easy answer. Laws have changed a lot over the years. In 1971 - when I ran my own fishing troller out of La Push and Neah Bay - we didn't even have to carry life preservers (as they were called then, and apparently again). Most boats were operated by a single person dressed in oilskins and rubber boots with lots of wool and coffee to keep warm. Today the cost of the safety gear, as Dave Kruger implies, takes a significant bite out of a (very short) season's profits. Many would just as soon take their chances. Besides that, just storing that stuff on a 35-foot boat can be a problem. When I worked on drill ships in the 1970s I bought my own Mustang coat with the flap and hood; mostly for the helicopter shuttles (the coat was too stiff for working on deck). When they started putting us in gumbies for the shuttles I carried the coat in my duffle "just in case". I suspect most people who work on the water make their own safety and many are not aware of the undergarments and layered clothing that's available now. And unless it becomes macho to do it, they won't be that interested either. And the lost radio officers are generally considered by the remaining crews to have had a negative impact on safety. Those guys often kept the safety equipment working. On one trip between Valdez and Panama the SatCom failed and the RO went up every hour to manually aim the unit to keep communications going. In addition he could use morse code in a pinch. They fixed the radars, the lifeboat radios, and tested the EPIRBS (and knew what to do if they failed the tests). Nowadays the Captains take a 2-week course designed to get them to pass the FCC General Radiotelephone license; this means they memorize the correct answers to the questions. Even *they* don't believe they are qualified to keep even the GMDSS equipment in operation (but they meet the "legal" requirements). And the engineers seldom have that knowledge either. One less person to pay. Safety is often a paper solution. They don't even teach deck officers to throw a lead-line any more. They have depth sounders now. But when we were on a sand bar in the Mississippi River the Pilot wanted to know which side of the ship was deepest (in order to direct the tugs which way to pull). I was the only person on the ship who knew how to do that. The rest followed me around to learn. Oops... now I'm getting cranky. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What to wear becomes an issue in compromise for me. If I am too hot while paddling I either have to stop and vent or get sick. Needless to say I stop and vent. On the other hand especially when paddling around our local icebergs I am well aware that a swim could be cold and deadly if I am not dressed for the water temperture. In the winter (which by the way refuses to let go of us this year, three feet of snow still in my front yard. We had an inch of snow last night and 2-3 inches predicted for tonight. I do not expect to see the ground until late April.) ) I dress for the swim with a full drysuit and multiple layers underneath. In the summer I wear hydro skin and polypro. No I would not survive the exposure of a long swim but when the sun does come out it can get too hot for a dry suit. As always we who venture out upon the sea must weigh the risks. Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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