> I know there are lots more people here more experienced in > paddle float > technique than I am. Any comments? Am I thinking through > this wrong? Perhaps Sponsons would have been a better option under these circumstances? It seems to me that sponsons would provide a more stable kayak under "challenging" circumstances. The conditions that led to the capsize will still exist when you re-enter your kayak. If the conditions are beyond your skill level, the odds of re-capsizing are high. Once could leave the sponsons inflated while paddling back to shore. Thoughts? Derek *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Derek wrote: > Perhaps Sp*nsons would have been a better option under these > circumstances? It seems to me that sp*nsons would provide a more stable > kayak under "challenging" circumstances. The conditions that led to the > capsize will still exist when you re-enter your kayak. If the > conditions are beyond your skill level, the odds of re-capsizing are > high. Once could leave the sp*nsons inflated while paddling back to > shore. Thoughts? [Note: I have altered the s-words so they will not be picked up by the originator of the s-device if he is scanning our listserv these days. See below for the reason, Derek. Your question is a good one, and not out of line at all.] Too bad we do not have archives of Paddlewise. Derek's question is an honest one, which in 1997 (1998?) led to the formation of this listserv as an offshoot of Wavelength, owing to the incessant, overbearing promotion of those devices by the owner of the rights to produce it. It is a long story ... In brief, the drawbacks of the s-device under rough seas are twofold: 1. They are devilishly difficult to install under those conditions, to such a degree that they almost need to be deployed before launching. 2. In heavy, steep seas, a "flat bottomed vessel," which the s-device produces, is exactly what you do not want. Reason: the flat bottom follows the face of the sea, and when a steep one comes along, the whole arrangement can get flipped upside down, where it is actually more stable because the weight of the upside down paddler functions as a keel. This is the reason vessels designed to traverse the open ocean have deep-vee hulls, and flat-bottomed skiffs should avoid steep seas.. I wish John Winters were contributing more often these days, because John had a link to a very compelling video clip showing why a flat-bottomed life raft might be better termed a death raft, because it does exactly what is described in 2. above, in steep, heavy seas. BTW, the seas in which that guy was rescued were fairly gnarly, all right, but they are in the low end of what I would call "steep, heavy seas." He had no business being out there, equipped with an s-device, a destroyer, or an aircraft carrier. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/12/2009 7:40:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, SNStone writes: It would be interesting to hear from people who have used the paddlefloat rescue in difficult conditions - for example 5 star conditions. I've paddled in the races around Angelsey, Wales and find it hard to think about doing a paddlefloat rescue in those conditions. While I occasionally teach the paddlefloat rescue and carry a paddlefloat, i prefer to teach a re-entry and roll with the paddlefloat. figure if one can get the float inflated and on the paddle the reentry will be more reliable and effective in "conditions" my 2 cents sid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've taught the paddlefloat rescue for more then twenty years. I have always stressed that the rescue should be done on the downwind side of the boat for the very simple reason that if you lose your grip on your boat during the rescue attempt then you want the boat to be blown into you rather then away from you. If you do the rescue correctly then you should always have your weight leaning in the direction of the paddlefloat (downwind) so that if you lose it you will fall back into the water on that side and not on the upwind side. That said, one of the most common mistakes made by inexperienced paddlers attempting this rescue is to get too high on their boats as they climb up on it and then lean the wrong way and re-capsize on the side opposite the paddlefoat. This means that in windy conditions, which are the type likely to capsize the paddler in the first place, the boat can very quickly be blown away faster then the paddler can possibly swim, especially when slowed down by the drag of the sprayskirt and pfd. In such cases beginning the rescue on the upwind side would mean that when you screw up and fall back into the water then you would fall on the downwind side of the boat - which would be a good thing - I guess :-) I think the real problem here is people putting too much faith in their equipment. One must constantly practice with and maintain their rescue equipment for it to be considered a reasonably reliable resource. Which is just another way of saying what I am always saying, it's not really about the equipment - it's about the skills. The fellow on the Youtube video had obviously done very little, if any, practice with the paddlefloat. He probably bought it and read the instructions and figured he was covered. By his own admission the good doctor has minimal experience with the paddlefloat as well. Yet he seemed to figure that it was OK to go out in extreme conditions by himself simply because he had one as a backup. Derek mentions s-devices - but once again, if you don't practice with them then carrying them may do more damage then good by instilling a false sense of confidence in the paddler. Of course if one is willing to put in the constant practice required then the sponsons are not necessary and the paddlefloat will more then suffice. Being all about the hubris, I personally no longer carry a paddlefloat since I consider it overly redundant for my own abilities :-) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Apr 12, 2009, at 7:10 PM, Scott Hilliard wrote: > I've taught the paddlefloat rescue for more then twenty years. I > have always stressed that the rescue should be done on the downwind > side of the boat... In the 20 years of teaching paddle float rescues how many classes were held in 30+ knot winds? It makes good sense to set up on the downwind side of the boat, but it seems to me that no matter where you start, you will likely end up being on the upwind side of the boat unless you nail it quickly. The wind is apt to blow you and the boat so the sea anchor (you) is upwind of the sail (the boat). And if you are unlucky enough to end up in the water upwind of the boat, how do you train people to get to the downwind side? Do you suggest that they go under the boat (hard with a lifejacket on) or go around the end? Going around the end will probably end up with the boat turned around but still on the upwind side - again the sail down wind of the sea anchor. Getting the boat around you in a wind is no simple matter. It is easy to pick on someone after the fact, but it seems justified to try reentering your boat in whatever orientation you end up in relative to the wind instead of spending more time wrestling the boat around while holding on to it and your paddling in high winds, for what may prove a very temporary advantage. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, In any significant wind, the body acts like a sea anchor, so if you start a paddlefloat rescue on the downwind side of a kayak, the kayak will quickly blow around you until you are upwind of it. So you don't have a choice. In real conditions, paddlefloat rescues will end up being done upwind of the kayak. I think being upwind of the kayak is better anyway, because having the paddlefloat on that side is like bracing into the waves. On the downwind side, the paddlefloat just pearls as waves break over you. That being said, I rarely carry a paddlefloat, and when I do, it's only so there's one less thing they can criticize me for in the safety article in Sea Kayaker Magazine if I blow it. Duane Southern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlefloat rescue or paddlefloat reentry and roll. Kayakers, In past years I have found myself in the critical places where waves break and keep you in what I call the black hole. Boat, paddle and paddler converge in that same place where incoming waves encounter out coming back flow. In both occasions I had to find a way to reenter my kayak and to get out of there, fighting breaking waves and rising and lowering swell. For some reason I always ended with my body on the down wave side, but placed my legs inside the cockpit, prepared my paddlefloat on the right paddle end, reentered and rolled. On the worst day, waves would come and hit me hard and the cockpit was full of water. I capsized three times until I learned how to support myself on the paddle float side, bracing to the wave as it hit, and paddling towards shore in the in between. My paddlefloat has bag only on the reverse side, so I can use a little bit of the power side to move forward. The second time I had a double bag paddlefloat and once I did reenter and roll, I could not move away from the black hole, since my paddlefloat did not allow for any forward motion. Since then I only carry a one side paddlefloat. Last year crossing the Sea of Cortes with 4 foot waves and good wind, I capsized due to weakness and certain kind of dizziness, but once in the cold water I woke up and did a paddlefloat reentry and roll. I used the paddlefloat for support while pumping out. When almost finished my friends came close and gave me energy bars and chocolate an Gatorade and I did recover to continue with the trip. So, my conclusion is that in the real conditions, the best way to get back in the kayak is paddlefloat reentry and roll. Under the conditions I was in, I would not even think of trying the traditional paddle float rescue. That would have drained my remaining energy, with possibly several capsizes. Best regards, Rafael Mier Mexico www.mayanseas.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> In the 20 years of teaching paddle float rescues how many classes were > held in 30+ knot winds? I teach beginner and intermediate classes. It is not my job to try to make expert kayakers in my classes. My job is to give these people the tools they need to recognize their limitations and safely and properly expand upon said limitations if that is their goal. The overwhelming majority of people who have been through my classes are probably not interested in ever taking a kayak out in 30+ knot winds. And I hope I have made it clear to those few who are interested in pushing their limits beyond the class that it requires constant practice, knowledge and judgment to reach that level. As far as the paddlefloat rescue goes, once the float is inflated I can easily re-enter the boat in less then fifteen seconds - even in very rough conditions (and I have practiced this rescue and others in real conditions). That does not give the boat a lot of time to be turning in the wind, and I have never found that to be a problem. Of course the bottom line here is that if you are not confident in your abilities to handle the conditions then you shouldn't be out in them. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:07 AM, Scott Hilliard <kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net>wrote: > Of course the bottom line here is that if you are not confident in your > abilities to handle the conditions then you shouldn't be out in them. > > Then there are those who are confident in their abilities to handle the conditions but shouldn't be out in them anyway. :) I have to say that I take my hat off to you teachers. I would do it more myself but everyone keeps telling me that grabbing them by the scruff of the neck and slapping the crap out of them is poor technique. Who knew? :P Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Apr 13, 2009, at 7:07 AM, Scott Hilliard wrote: >> In the 20 years of teaching paddle float rescues how many classes >> were held in 30+ knot winds? > > I teach beginner and intermediate classes. It is not my job to try > to make expert kayakers in my classes. My job is to give these > people the tools they need to recognize their limitations and safely > and properly expand upon said limitations if that is their goal. The > overwhelming majority of people who have been through my classes are > probably not interested in ever taking a kayak out in 30+ knot > winds. And I hope I have made it clear to those few who are > interested in pushing their limits beyond the class that it requires > constant practice, knowledge and judgment to reach that level. It is never someone's intention to need to rescue themselves, so if we base what we teach on what people intend, we would not bother teaching any self rescue techniques. As a practical matter, it is really beyond the upper-limit conditions where any rescue is most likely to be required. A self-rescue rarely needs to be used when people stay within their limits. The whole reason for teaching them is because people often find themselves beyond their limits despite their best intentions. If I have any problem with the paddle float rescue it is that people are very unlikely to practice it extensively in real-world conditions. Doing a full real world practice from paddling along with the float un- inflated and stowed, through a capsize and swim, back to a point where the paddler is able to make full progress again is a major iteration (more than 15 seconds). Where a half dozen full-and-complete rolls can be practiced in a couple minutes with little impact on the progress of a paddle, the same can not be said for a paddle float rescue. As a result it seldom practiced as extensively as it deserves. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Nick Schade" > In the 20 years of teaching paddle float rescues how many classes were held in 30+ knot winds? Great point. My experience has been that very few kayakers ever practice their rescues in rough water and rough conditions. Recently on an "experienced kayakers only" outing with a local club it was decided to do some rescue practice. I was astounded when the entire group paddled into a protected lee to do the practice leaving an area that was ideal - a steady but manageable wind, and good two foot waves. Almost all capsizes I've witnessed happen in rough water with the exception of the getting in and out type. Oddly almost all the rescues are practiced on flat water. I try to make it a point to include rough water rolls, re-entries and rescues as part of my normal routine but readily admit I don't do it often enough. When this incident first hit the airwaves I watched the video again and again and could see no evidence of a spray skirt or spray deck. This emission was the single most significant factor in his dilemma. His troubles really accelerated when according to him he's hit by a four foot wave that puts two to three inches of water in his kayak cockpit causing it to destabilize. Up to that point he was simply paddling in rough water. Afterward he had to employ skills he simply had not mastered. Going out with out a spray deck/skirt is crazy. Gordin Warner Victoria *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rough conditions are not the only issue. Add a loaded boat and see what happens. Peace be with you, Dana Be the change you believe in. Larry Long, Paul Wellstone, Ghandi *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote: >>>>>>>>Too bad we do not have archives of Paddlewise. Derek's question is an honest one, which in 1997 (1998?) led to the formation of this listserv as an offshoot of Wavelength, owing to the incessant, overbearing promotion of those devices by the owner of the rights to produce it. It is a long story ... In brief, the drawbacks of the s-device under rough seas are twofold: 1. They are devilishly difficult to install under those conditions, to such a degree that they almost need to be deployed before launching. 2. In heavy, steep seas, a "flat bottomed vessel," which the s-device produces, is exactly what you do not want. Reason: the flat bottom follows the face of the sea, and when a steep one comes along, the whole arrangement can get flipped upside down, where it is actually more stable because the weight of the upside down paddler functions as a keel. This is the reason vessels designed to traverse the open ocean have deep-vee hulls, and flat-bottomed skiffs should avoid steep seas.. I wish John Winters were contributing more often these days, because John had a link to a very compelling video clip showing why a flat-bottomed life raft might be better termed a death raft, because it does exactly what is described in 2. above, in steep, heavy seas.<<<<<<<<< Tim may think he has the sole rights to produce sp*ns*ns (and he may be looking for these spellings now as well) but his "patent" is a joke and I, among others have documented prior art of inflatable sponsons in use so if you'd like to make and market some improved sponsons have at it. I made sponsons and have dated slides of them in use long before Tim did and you have my permission to make and sp*ns*ns if you wish. Dave is right about the many downsides of Tim's sp*ns*ns but they don't have to be that bad and Tim should have worked on the design of them to make them better and easier to use rather than spending his time declaring the paddling world to be child killers instead. Check out the much sleeker sp*ns*ns Freya has on her boat at http://qajaqunderground.com/wp-content/uploads/0204-2-018-w.jpg Made in Germany I believe. They look like at least they wouldn't plow under the water like Tim's do when you try to paddle with them in place (and low enough to be doing anything for your stability). I recall John Winters writing that due to the rotating action of the water as a wave goes by a wide flat bottom kayak does not have nearly the destabilizing effect that Canoe and Kayak magazine critisized wide flat bottom canoes for. I believe he was correct in that the wave motion creates an artificial gravity that tends to help the paddler being tipped by the stability of their boat. Of course, all bets are off as soon as the wide boat is hit sideways by a breaking wave. Then if you are in a boat you can't lean you are going to go for a tumble. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Dave wrote: > > >>>>>>>>Too bad we do not have archives of Paddlewise. Derek's question is an > honest one, which in 1997 (1998?) led to the formation of this listserv > as an offshoot of Wavelength, owing to the incessant, overbearing promotion > of those devices by the owner of the rights to produce it. It is a long > story for those fearful of the word sponsons. It's not on the list of terms that I review prior to posting. > I wish John Winters were contributing more often these days, because John > had a link to a very compelling video clip showing why a flat-bottomed life > raft might be better termed a death raft, because it does exactly what is > described in 2. above, in steep, heavy seas. That was a memorable video. It's the Givens life raft. http://www.viddler.com/explore/Givens/videos/2/ has a video of a couple of rafts in the water behind a commercial jet taking off. The explanation of the design is: http://www.marsys.com.au/sandr/testing.htm Kirk -- Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
That's good advice. While the traditional paddlefloat rescue can and does work, even well depending on circumstances and context, it is axiomatic to most seasoned paddlers that at a certain point - especially the point where a seasoned paddler dumps - the only worthy _aided_ self rescue is a paddlefloat reentry and roll. I still carry a paddlfloat just in case my unaided reenter and roll fails. The other issue with traditional paddlefloat rescues is that as sea state or conspiring conditions increase, paddle shafts start to break and precious energy reserves can be squandered f'rting around with failed paddlefloat initiations. Once you get into a real CF - if you know what I mean - then time is critical - especially in cold water and/or rock gardens, etc. Perhaps one of the issues we have to deal with in the paddling community is the notion that it should be a super-sano dry sport. Experts like Derek Hutchinson perhaps do a dis-service by admonishing paddlers to stay dry and eschew full-on protective apparel. I like to get wet, get practiced, then adopt a "failure is not an option" attitude. If I do come out, do hurt myself or exhaust myself somehow, the paddlefloat reenter and roll is a glorious backup to my normal well-executed reenter and roll. Despite the utility of a well-executed reenter and roll ability in gnarly water and tide races - especially for those seeking such venues - we have in thaepast seen incredible ignorance from the likes of instructors like Linda Leg pooh-poohing the BCU star assessments in the UK where they actually practice and are at ease with the pure reenter and roll methods, just as we have also seen other notable writer/paddlers bashing rolling. Fine, stay out of my face and I'll stay out of yours. In the end, your milage varies anyway - though Rafael certainly has benefited from the R&R with float - and will get to paddle some more miles. I suppose different paddlers have different issues with differing gear. Greenland stick users may not be as inclined toward inflatable floats, for example. My only real objective observation in all this - and one shared by Matt and Cam over the years if I remember, is now that you are back in your boat, can you effectively extract cockpit water volume sufficiently and re-do your skirt? Whatever way you get back in, make sure you can complete the task fully in the conditions you have found yourself in. I also carry other adjunctive safety gear and of course, my radio. In the end, it isn't about the backups - important as they might be depending on your POV, but rather your ability to self-direct preventatively and then to effectively strategize once there's incipient foreshadowing or a problem is beginning to be encountered in real time; you then have to be able to deal with any unintended consequences. Barring genuine accidents, my mind is made up that there's a whole bunch of ill-prepared paddlers out there, given the number of incidents I've reviewed or heard about with similar sub--text to the incident. But hey, float, gloat, or make a note. But please, as the guy in the movie City Slickers once said, there's just _one_ thing you gotta figure out. If your a paddler, you gotta go figure that one thing out. That's the message. Doug Lloyd > Paddlefloat rescue or paddlefloat reentry and roll. > > Kayakers, > > In past years I have found myself in the critical places where waves break > and keep you in what I call the black hole. Boat, paddle and paddler > converge in that same place where incoming waves encounter out coming > back > flow. In both occasions I had to find a way to reenter my kayak and to get > out of there, fighting breaking waves and rising and lowering swell. > > For some reason I always ended with my body on the down wave side, but > placed my legs inside the cockpit, prepared my paddlefloat on the right > paddle end, reentered and rolled. On the worst day, waves would come and > hit > me hard and the cockpit was full of water. I capsized three times until I > learned how to support myself on the paddle float side, bracing to the > wave > as it hit, and paddling towards shore in the in between. My paddlefloat > has > bag only on the reverse side, so I can use a little bit of the power side > to > move forward. > > The second time I had a double bag paddlefloat and once I did reenter and > roll, I could not move away from the black hole, since my paddlefloat did > not allow for any forward motion. Since then I only carry a one side > paddlefloat. > > Last year crossing the Sea of Cortes with 4 foot waves and good wind, I > capsized due to weakness and certain kind of dizziness, but once in the > cold > water I woke up and did a paddlefloat reentry and roll. I used the > paddlefloat for support while pumping out. When almost finished my friends > came close and gave me energy bars and chocolate an Gatorade and I did > recover to continue with the trip. > > So, my conclusion is that in the real conditions, the best way to get back > in the kayak is paddlefloat reentry and roll. Under the conditions I was > in, > I would not even think of trying the traditional paddle float rescue. That > would have drained my remaining energy, with possibly several capsizes. > > Best regards, > > Rafael Mier > Mexico > www.mayanseas.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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