ve posted here several times about the visibility (or, more accurately, the lack of visibility) of a kayak on the radar screens of ships and boats.This morning I was reading an article by Ta mia Nelson over on Paddling.net ( www.paddling.net if you need the link) as part of their feature "In the Same Boat" that addresses this issue (for the second time in a couple of months). Mike Euritt, who also posts here on Paddlewise, is quoted in the essay and he and I have shared thoughts on the issue back-channel several times. I particularly liked Mike's pithy comments on the three main requirements for being seen on radar: (1) Is the radar on?( 2) Does the operator have a clue? and, (3) Is anyone looking at the display? You would be surprised at how seldom all three of these conditions are met. And then you get into issues of whether the radar is tuned properly, how far the target is, if it's raining or there are wind waves, and so forth. Mike also thinks that the newer digital radar systems might be better at picking up kayakers but remains a skeptic. I think, by and large, skepticism about being seen on radar is a good thing but I'll have a much better slant on this after I install my Garmin 3006 GPS/Sounder/Radar system on the Muthah-Ship. I bought everything but the radar scanner from a guy on Craigslist for $700 but since the boat is in the water and 200 miles away I haven't actually installed it (or bought the scanner) yet. One of the more salient points of the article was a link to an actual test done by the USCG and some kayakers on the east coast in which they tried to find out how well kayaks show up on radar and whether reflectors help much. That study can be found in .pdf form here: http://www.maineseakayakguides.com/radar_report.pdf Their results are pretty interesting and it's well worth a read. One of the most surprising results is that one of the more effective radar reflectors is just a tin-foil hat. So if you already wear one to keep the space-aliens or the Government from reading your mind then you are ahead of the rest of us. Rejoice! I'm about to install one myself as a liner to my paddling helmet. Tin foil is, I'm pretty sure, water resistant. Some of the results are just common sense. Kayaks show up better when broadside than they do when end-on and show up better as a group than singly. And any more than about 1/2 mile away from the radar unit means that your "return" will be pretty faint. Still, highly recommended reading for anyone who paddles where there might be vessels equipped with radar. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
While I like the idea of being visible on radar, I have one question: How big a problem are collisions with kayaks? I frequently hear powerboaters complain that kayaks are not visible, yet I don't hear cases of kayaks being hit due to lack of visibility. A google search does find a collision where the powerboater was not watching where he was going, but it had little to do with lack of visibility: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/kayaking/news/article.cfm?c_id=57&objectid=10433145 From the perspective of a kayaker, I feel that it is very unlikely that a kayaker will be hit by a powerboat even if there is near zero visibility and no radar. Kayakers can hear other boats coming and can generally get out of the way even if a boat comes quite close. A typical powerboat is not more than one kayak length wide and all that really needs to happen is the kayak needs to move one kayak length out of the way. The victim in the New Zealand incident had about 7 seconds to move as the powerboat going 16 knots powerboat covered 60 meters. If the kayaker had paddled 3 knots he would have moved 10 meters out of the way. Many paddlers would choose to paddle out of the way vs waving a paddle. This of course ignores the fact that if the captain is not able to avoid a 17' floating object he is not operating his boat safely - for his own safety. I have yet to hear a compelling reason why kayakers should go to any added effort to make themselves more visible to radar. There does not seem to be a epidemic of collisions with kayakers. It seems to me that the main thing driving this discussion is powerboaters who are annoyed that they may have to pay attention and act responsibly while sharing the waters with other boaters. Maybe they just don't like the inconvenience of having to slow down when they eventually see a kayak. If a captain of powerboat maintains the minimum lookout and adjusts their speed to the prevailing conditions, there should never be a collision. If as a powerboater you are concerned enough that you will invest in a slightly better radar to help avoid a collision with a kayaker, I applaud your courtesy and conscientiousness, but I suspect there are more pressing issues that could be addressed more easily. Larger commercial vessels are another matter, but again, how many collisions have there been? Nick On Jun 12, 2009, at 8:45 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > > I particularly liked Mike's pithy comments on the three main > requirements > for being seen on radar: (1) Is the radar on?( 2) Does the operator > have a > clue? and, (3) Is anyone looking at the display? You would be > surprised at > how seldom all three of these conditions are met. And then you get > into > issues of whether the radar is tuned properly, how far the target > is, if > it's raining or there are wind waves, and so forth. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>wrote: > While I like the idea of being visible on radar, I have one question: How > big a problem are collisions with kayaks? > > All it takes is a glance at Lake Union in Seattle after 5pm on a summer day to see that some waterways are crowded with various types of vessels and speed limits don't always work. Many people begin boating in kayaks and some could have the impression that power boats have radar and can see and avoid them. I think that the thrust of the article and study was, "don't rely on someone on a boat seeing you in your kayak on radar." Tacking a radar reflector or wearing an aluminum hat is really not much use. The moral is, as you said, be alert and be ready to dodge them. And if possible paddle where powerboats fear to tread. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I would think carrying several RPG's would make you more visible to those powerboaters. Brad Quoting Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>: > On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Nick Schade > <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>wrote: > >> While I like the idea of being visible on radar, I have one question: How >> big a problem are collisions with kayaks? >> >> > All it takes is a glance at Lake Union in Seattle after 5pm on a summer day > to see that some waterways are crowded with various types of vessels and > speed limits don't always work. Many people begin boating in kayaks and some > could have the impression that power boats have radar and can see and avoid > them. > > I think that the thrust of the article and study was, "don't rely on someone > on a boat seeing you in your kayak on radar." Tacking a radar reflector or > wearing an aluminum hat is really not much use. The moral is, as you said, > be alert and be ready to dodge them. And if possible paddle where powerboats > fear to tread. > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Bradford R. Crain <crainb_at_pdx.edu> wrote: > I would think carrying several RPG's would make you more visible > to those powerboaters. > > You could use them as spare paddles, too. Anonymous no, really *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jun 15, 2009, at 9:29 PM, Craig Jungers wrote: > I think that the thrust of the article and study was, "don't rely on > someone > on a boat seeing you in your kayak on radar." I would go further: Don't rely on someone on a boat seeing you - period. Paddle with the assumption that you are invisible at all times. This can even apply when you have hard evidence that the incoming boat sees you and is taking evasive maneuvers. nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>wrote: > > I would go further: > > Don't rely on someone on a boat seeing you - period. > > Paddle with the assumption that you are invisible at all times. This can > even apply when you have hard evidence that the incoming boat sees you and > is taking evasive maneuvers. > > Yeah... this really can't be stressed enough for new paddlers (or old ones, for that matter). The level of incompetence of boat operators should never be underestimated. Boater cards notwithstanding (although they might help). And just as an aside, there are commercial operators (tugs, fishing boats, sightseeing boats) who feel that because they earn a living out there they have more of a "right" to the water than recreational boaters of any sort. Combine this attitude with one too many beers at Joe's place down by the docks and you really don't want to be where they go. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jun 16, 2009, at 12:14 PM, Craig Jungers wrote: > And just as an aside, there are commercial operators (tugs, fishing > boats, sightseeing boats) who feel that because they earn a living > out there they have more of a "right" to the water than recreational > boaters of any sort. Combine this attitude with one too many beers > at Joe's place down by the docks and you really don't want to be > where they go. The other group with an attitude are racers. I've several times been near sailboat races where the boats were not going to give way for anything. In one case a group of us was approached by a lone dinghy. As he got closer the sailor started yelling "I'm racing. I'M RACING." Well, I'm all for being courteous and will generally do what I can to keep clear of a race, but it is a courtesy. We were a group of kayakers out recreating, he was a lone sailor out recreating, I failed to see why his recreation should suddenly have priority over ours. BTW, there were no other dinghies in the harbor at the time, so he was either way ahead or way behind, so the 0.1 seconds he might have lost by steering around us would not have made any significant difference, but he was racing so he felt he had the right to yell at us. We got out of the way because it was easier than dealing with a collision. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>wrote: > > The other group with an attitude are racers. I've several times been near > sailboat races where the boats were not going to give way for anything. Ah yes, racers. They have their own set of rules and begin to believe that it applies to everyone else, too. I was once entering a marina (in Everett, WA) when a racer just ahead and on my starboard bow suddenly made a 90-deg turn to port. This put him on a collision course. I yelled, "what are your intentions?" and he replied "to put my boat in my slip". I then yelled, "you won't have a boat in ten seconds". He turned 180-deg to starboard. It would have been an interesting collision as I could not have stopped nor turned away. But he was ahead of me making me the "burdened" vessel. Although in those days if you were being overtaken you had to maintain course and speed until you had been passed. Nowadays no course or speed change can make you the burdened vessel if you are being overtaken. Staying away from sailboat racers is highly recommended. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > Staying away from sailboat racers is highly recommended. Also wildwater/downriver racers. Some of the best in the world live and train around here. I got a rap on the head from a passing paddle once on the Chattahoochee River. If I'm out with a beginning group and I know they're on the river, I warn my group that those boats don't turn and those paddler's won't. Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I didn't see the edition that had my reply in it, so I don't know what may have been edited in my reply to the original author. I would agree with you Nick, there seems to be no real problem to be solved here. Even on busy SF Bay there was not one mention of a large boat vs kayak in the three years I was a member of BASK that comes to mind. If anything, there is the usual beginner complaints about wakes from passing boats. As a sailboater with a 37' plodding 13T craft, I have been very interested in how to go about seeing these small objects in the water. I am trying to learn the radar, a 15 year old green screen relic, and will upgrade to the latest technology, currently broadband radar before we go cruising. I've noticed the flash of a reflector strip on a paddle long before I see anything else. We have yet to have the radar well enough adjusted to see more than the channel markers we must follow, and that may be the best we can hope for. What I find most interesting is the radar discussion on the trawler and sailboat lists, which I paraphrased in my note. Here is an excellent report on learning the old school technology http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=105837 and, what is being promised with broadband http://www.lowrance.com/en/Products/Marine/Broadband-Radar/ but, i still don't think it is of particular value as far as helping to see us kayakers. That said, about 20 years ago a man I knew was killed on a small commercial fishing boat by being run over by a tanker/freighter. IIRC, it was heavy fog and just out the Golden Gate, had either one been monitoring radar, or with current technology, the AIS, one could have avoided the other. And of course there is the recent damage to SF Bay Bridge by the Cosco Busan, presumably there were officers aboard who knew what they were looking at on that little green screen. Then we can wander off on the technology assisted groundings and collisions that involve putting too much trust in GPS and other video games on the dashboard. But that has gone on for the past two weeks on the Trawler list. No substitute for seamanship, kayak or big or bigger boat. Mike San Rafael budding surf zone kayaker. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Mike Euritt <mike.euritt_at_gmail.com> wrote: > > What I find most interesting is the radar discussion on the trawler and > sailboat lists, which I paraphrased in my note. Here is an excellent report > on learning the old school technology > http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=105837 > > and, what is being promised with broadband > http://www.lowrance.com/en/Products/Marine/Broadband-Radar/ > > but, i still don't think it is of particular value as far as helping to see > us kayakers. If the guy who wrote the post in the first link (old school) can see two seagulls flying past the stern of his boat underway then it might be possible that they'll see kayakers. I, too, remain unconvinced. The least likely tool that would be used to see a kayak is a radar set, in my opinion. > That said, about 20 years ago a man I knew was killed on a > small commercial fishing boat by being run over by a tanker/freighter. > IIRC, > it was heavy fog and just out the Golden Gate, had either one been > monitoring radar, or with current technology, the AIS, one could have > avoided the other. The Exxon Valdez ran upon Bligh Reef in Prince William Sound with two radars going, two people with merchant marine licenses (3rd mate and A/B - Exxon had just fired their old A/B union and had hired all new deck crew straight out of the merchant marine academies - they get a blue water A/B card with their new 3rd mate's license) on the bridge, a buoy flashing red to starboard (should be to port), and an island dead ahead. You just can't legislate against stupidity. Mike Euritt might find this link hady in his discourse on the trawler list: http://books.google.com/books?id=nlIYDrgc1ncC&pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&dq=rules+of+the+road+radar+use&source=bl&ots=0cBcAyXP8I&sig=KHHSBB7kexIbF52rI3Q4EochXSU&hl=en&ei=ma43Sq70DZTAM_6n6IMN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#PPA225,M1 It's an excerpt from a book on Navigational Rules called "Farwell's Rules of the Road" and is excellent. I do think that broadband radar could make a difference but the problem there is that it will take decades to filter down throughout the various fleets. And even then they'll probably never be used on the boats I consider the greatest threat: power boats on a plane doing 20kts or more. They will be used in conjunction with very expensive plotters and cost US3k to US5k which will be, in many cases, a significant percentage of the vessel's net worth in the case of boats under 30 feet. It is interesting that Australia requires nav lights on kayaks. These are not required by the ColRegs to which Aus. is signatory. The more pervasive the bureaucracy the more likely it is that it will enact rules designed to make us safe. At least on paper. As kayaking's popularity grows we can be assured that the Rules will change to keep us safe; and to better ascribe blame. There really is no simple answer for a paddler other than to keep alert, stay away from places powered boats are likely to also go, use retro-reflective (not just reflective) tape on paddles and gear, and hope that the powerboat operator screaming down the waterway isn't stupid or drunk; or both. Not likely, in my experience. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike wrote >I've noticed the flash of a reflector strip on a paddle long before I see anything else. G'day, A moving paddle is the first thing I can see when looking at a distance of a km or so for a kayaker in flat water. In even moderately rough water it can be impossible to see a kayaker even when they are relatively close. Do you remember the video someone showed a few months ago about a ferry rescuing a kayaker who couldn't reenter. I think he had a paddlefloat but was too exhausted. One of the first things I noticed in the first few seconds was how hard it was to see the kayaker. I paddle Sydney Harbour, which can be full of fast moving boats, and always assume I'm invisible to everyone - only been run over once and that was when a motor boat went into reverse without checking. Cheers, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> While I like the idea of being visible on radar, I have one question: How > big a problem are collisions with kayaks? > > I frequently hear powerboaters complain that kayaks are not visible, yet > I don't hear cases of kayaks being hit due to lack of visibility. A > google search does find a collision where the powerboater was not > watching where he was going, but it had little to do with lack of > visibility: > http://www.nzherald.co.nz/kayaking/news/article.cfm?c_id=57&objectid=10433145 > Hi all, Maybe it is a problem restricted to Kiwi paddlers, but I can think of three kayak-versus-powerboat collisions, including this one. One resulted in a death and charges, and in the other the victim/target was a double. The front paddler leaned forward, the rear paddler leaned back, both got hit by the hull and the screw chopped through the deck between them! Good shooting if you ask me. Poor visibilty/sun strike was put up as a defence in both these cases. A while ago I stalked a stationary Coastguard vessel, as I knew the skipper. The sea was dead calm and after chatting with him I asked if I showed up on their radar. We played around for a while, with me doing circuits at different ranges and I was invisible to their radar, even in perfect conditions and them able to see me by looking up from their screen. Not really that surprising and it just confirmed that I should assume that, regardless of what rules say, I'm invisible, I'll always lose a resulting scrap, and I should behave accordingly. We are also going through issues with local governments (Regional Councils) passing rules dictating that kayakers need to wear hi-vis clothing, reflective paddles, flags, etc. This follows complaints from other boatees about the difficulty of seeing kayaks.While a commendable idea in principal, our concern is that it shifts the onus on to the paddler to be seen, and away from the power-driven vessel's skipper to see. It could also offer a defence in the event of a collision, in that "The paddler wasn't wearing the correct clothing, how was I to see them?" Personally, I'm fighting for a law change to enable kayakers to carry concealed weapons, a stainless-steel shotgun would look quite fancy on my buoyancy vest. :-) As long as the vest is hi-vis that should be OK. Cheers JKA John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've kept a study I found of a group of Kayakers in Maine with the cooperation of the U.S. Coast Guard on visibility using radar. In this they approached this with starting out looking at if any return was being generated with just the lone kayaker and a group, (darn near next to nothing) to using reflectors. Now this was done in the summer of 2003 to 2004 so I don't believe that much advancement in the science of radar, etc, has been developed since then. I've placed it at http://366thspsk-9.com/radar.pdf It's an Adobe PDF file, 8 pages long, 2.9 MB in size. Greg Dunlap Santa Rosa, CA 38.478156 N 122.754598 W 157 feet above sea level blackey_at_sonic.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John wrote >We played around for a while, with me doing circuits at >different ranges and I was invisible to their radar, even in perfect >conditions and them able to see me by looking up from their screen. G'Day, The first kayak I bought was a demo model olive drab Klepper Aerius, from a military supply outfit who took some pride in showing me their advertising brochure. It was a picture of two marines paddling a double Klepper in a battle zone with a missile flying overhead and the virtue of the Klepper in this instance was its invisibility on radar. I've often wondered how significant the Klepper's wooden frame was and whether boats such as the Feathercraft with its aluminium frame would show up more readily on a radar screen. Anyway the Klepper lived up to the brochure's promise and I never was hit by a missile:~) All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have found that staying alert and out of the way as much as possible is important, I usually scan the horizon and look at the boats that are on a collision heading to detrmine my best path and determine if I can cross before they get there. Sometimmes if theyt don't seem to be maintaining a steady heading, I try my VHF so that we can discuss who should pass who, sometimes I get an answer from them, other times I don't and have to decide between wating in place, turning back or sprinting accross. I used to be able to "escape" powerboats by getting to the edge of a rock garden, but find that with the currrent GPS navigation systems in some powerboats, that they have programmed in a route on a clear day that takes them just off the rocks and can run full speed in a fog, which makes my shelters more difficult to use ;-) Saul Saul Kinderis saul_at_isomedia.com cell 206.313.0107 http://www.isomedia.com/homes/saul *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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