Re: [Paddlewise] Outside vs. Inside Edge for Turning in Surf

Dave,

Sorry I didn't make sense. Must be the anti-matter language contrived to 
conceal - as Bruce Cockburn would sing. It's been a full weekend, but I'll 
try explaing here now - hope I don't fail ya bro...

I'm not even sure why the sentence you question was even added to the 
conversation. We were discussing the merits of outside leans on moving wave 
slopes. Perhaps I was reinforcing the notion that for me (and in reality, 
what is more typically taught and wrote about) leaning into the wave face as 
opposed to shore-side was the safer option all things being equal for 
surfing breakers - then justifying this having compared that to the normally 
taught in-current downstream lean (usually with an perpendicular torso 
orientation) that prevents water catching the up-stream edge and flipping 
you forcefully. So, in my misunderstood sentence, I wasn't even talking 
about waves, just current dynamics and what is considered conventional 
wisdom for leaning/edging, as is inside edging/leaning into the turn with 
surfing breaking waves. Or put another way, there are two very different 
dynamics for wave-face support versus being perpendicular to crossing a 
current, but both techiniques I mentioned for dealing with those two 
environments are what is conventially taught and practiced. Hope to gosh 
that makes sense, otherwise I need to hire Will for his better articulation 
skills....

I do find Duane's highlighting of the usefulness of outside carving in surf 
and his video augmentation shared with us and other groups a point missed by 
many who instruct surf zone play (even if his hull dynamic perspectives 
didn't jive), but in reality, if a competent, confident paddler already 
makes use of a sea kayak's outside carve-turn ability, they are certainly 
going to utilize that feature up until the point where the need for 
stability and seaward-leaning paddle support take over. The useful 
instruction here would really be more one of how well-timed and skilled one 
is converting from the shore side paddle orientation if the paddle is on the 
outside lean too, over to the ocean-side support with the outside carve just 
taking palce. At least, in retrospect when I go through the mental picture 
of me on waves, that's where I need to keep up the practice. Perhaps more so 
when I get my chinned kayak out this fall in the surf and can do more 
outside edging turns. Some of this stuff I have to get out and do as 
visualizations fails.

I watched a buddy surf for thousands of feet out a Bajo Reef a few years 
back. The swell peaked but did not break and the runs lasted forever - 
almost had time to get out a flask of tea and sip away. Highly applicable 
time for outside carving to keep on track in front of the wave. Yeah, me, I 
just cheated and used my deep draft rudder.

I've taught specific ocean kayak surfing courses with a co-instructor in the 
past. Although the focus of the course was on bringing a 5 meter-plus sea 
kayak safely through the surf in the broached position, all the usual surf 
basics were covered both in pre-water beach-time learning as well as out on 
the water. Everything was pretty much boiler-plated from Nigel Foster's 
articles around August/October 1999 in SeaKayaker magazine if I remember. We 
covered edging (weight shift/knee lift), up-wave leans (weight on paddle), 
trim (leaning forward/backwards versus pearling/down-wave-up-wave turns), 
and then edging versus leaning. We covered moving forward and backwards 
while side surfing and of course the classic forward run, which as far as I 
remember, we always taught bracing to seaward until the heavier lean was 
then employed, though Dave, the other instructor told the students to lean 
forward a bit more and to starboard if they were getting ahead of the sweet 
spot while surfing port-wards (for example).

I didn't like the course or teaching it precisely because everything was 
taught arbitrarily without regard to variations - but then I tend to 
overcomplicate my pedagogical efforts with too much information and 
variation (for a novice needing simple initial instruction). And, I put way 
more stock in paddlestrokes to individuate optimal surf-zone play for an 
individual's kayak handling characteristics and their personal 
strength/flexibility controlling the kayak with the blades. I guess for me 
personally,  I tend to surf in more complex surf zones where classic lines 
of thought don't always provide the results demanded. Certainly, 
survivability in some of the complex dynamics isn't a matter of debate or 
alleged exaggeration. It's my life. High stern rudders stroke variations in 
big, breaking following seas, bow rudder variatons in tightly constricted 
surge channels with breaking surf - these are the techniques I work to 
refine and depend upon.

However, a lot of the stuff Duane is getting at with carving is lost on 
someone with a hull that isn't well-served by carving-induced turns and 
directional control. That will certainly change for me in the not too 
distant future with possible boat changes on the horizon and practice in my 
S&G. Whatever the case, Duane is always a breath of fresh air and often a 
challenge to convention norms.

Doug Lloyd





> I've stayed out of this, mainly because guys like Duane and Doug have tons 
> more experience surfing waves than I do.
>
> I gotta say, though, that Doug's first sentence makes no sense to me.  His 
> description of what he does when surfing a standing wave (second sentence) 
> makes perfect sense, however.
>
> [What Doug said:
>
>>  In tide races I lean downstream or lean down-direction of the water
>> movement to negate water piling on the opposite side inducing a flip, so
>> tuning port for example is fine if the water is moving against the
>> starboard hull but then I'd be pushed in that direction regardless. For
>> standing waves in a race I usually lean to the inside of the turn for
>> turning. I'll have to experiment a bit. Some times it depends on hull 
>> design.
>
> Getting back to Duane's question:  When surfing a wave breaking in a surf 
> zone, orbital motion takes a back seat to gravity and waveslope, I think, 
> complicated by the fact the water mass of a breaking wave is moving toward 
> the beach (I think).  Surfing a standing wave is a somewhat different 
> kettle of fish, from the point of view of motion of the water mass (I 
> think).
>
> My bet is that Duane is both skidding _and_ carving, depending on the 
> steepness of the waveface, and that when "down wave edging" he is tipped 
> so far down-wave he thinks he is using the down-wave edge to carve, but he 
> is really skidding. (I think)
>
> If it seems I am hedging here, that's good.  I am so far past my 
> board-surfing days and such an infrequent kayak-surfer, I do not have much 
> competence to stand on.  But, maybe some of this will give Duane grist for 
> sorting out the dynamics.  Doug, he's got more grist than any seven people 
> I know, so he does not need any more from me.
>
> -- 
> Dave Kruger
> Astoria, OR
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