On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 4:18 PM, <rcgibbert_at_aol.com> wrote: > > > I first learned about Greenland paddling from Sea Kayaker magazine. > However, it was the BCU that went to the trouble of hiring someone, flying > them to the symposium destination and paying them to teach. That's not a > particuilary wise move if you want to run a control scheme, but they do it > at all of the symposiums I've been to and ones I see advertised. > Curmodgeon mode: on That is exactly how you'd do it if you wanted to take control over a sport and become the de-facto authority for bestowing credentials. You would get your own people involved in every symposium, give them maximum exposure to the most potential students and get maximum exposure to media. In fact, it's a classic move. Get in first, get in quick, and get established. This is not to say that all the BCU instructors are interested in control... or even any of them. But what it does mean is that right now BCU is positioned to be *the* world-wide authority over who is "qualfied" to be a coach, instructor, or even a paddler at certain levels. Once that authority is established it then becomes easy to encourage insurance underwriters, clubs, schools and other symposia to use the newly establlished criteria as the base line for activities involving those skills. And BCU-certified paddlers would be crazy not to be enthusiastic over something that helps them get more clients and/or more jobs. Why do I think that it's about the money? Partly because I've noticed that classes leading to BCU certs are more expensive... and it's multi-tiered. Step one is to take a course to get you ready for the test. Part two is take the test. This is a classic way to maximize income. And also because the credentials require you to make continued payments to the BCU to retain them (I don't even have to do that to the FAA to maintan my pilot's license). If your membership lapses so does your certification. Unviersities would love that scheme too. Got a BS degree?.... only $1000 every four years to your alma-mater to keep that degree valid. Or spend four years in classes and then pony up another $10k to take the exam to get your diploma. Does this remind you of any other professional accreditation systems? Like the PE (professional engineer) exams? Fifty years ago only a few structures-based engineers bothered to get a PE; now it's almost all of them if they want to be in a supervisory position. Are the courses useful? Well of course. They'd have to be in order to cement their position as *the* authority. If the courses weren't useful then no one would take them serously. That people do take them seriously as a training venue doesn't necessarily mitigate the other scenario. Schools love this because they make money in every direction. Once the school has a BCU coach qualified to anoint other coaches and bestow stars they can get a leg up on the competition. "We have the only 5 star BCU coach on the West Coast." Where can you get certified? By someone who is already certified. Profit from the class and then profit again from the test. Q) Does it mean that no one without BCU credentials will be employable as a guide or instructor? A) Not right now but I predict that it will be the minimum requirement before long and that will be pushed by insurance underwriters at first... and then required before long. Q) Does it mean that you will need BCU certificaton to rent a kayak? A) Yes, almost certainly this will be imposed by insurers on businesses who rent kayaks. Level 1 or 2 would be the minimum. Q) Does it mean the end of kayaking? A) Well no. But it could spell the end of what many of us now think of as the freedom to kayak. Bureaucracies love paper solutions and there's not much better than a credential to make them believe that all the potental problems have been solved. Witness the application of uncommon sense to offshore kayaking in Australia and NZ. You could be asked to show your BCU card to harbor patrol, USCG or other police agency. This would absolve them of any liability. "We don't know why he died but when we saw his BCU 4 certification we figured he was qualified to paddle in those conditions so we let him be." Don't have the certification card? Get back to within 100 yards of the shoreline please. Q) Will authorities come to rely on BCU certification as the primary qualification to engage in paddling activities. A) Yup. I think that it's only a matter of time. And your membership better be paid up. Curmudgeon Mode: Off. I don't know if this will be good for paddling in general or not but I'm pretty sure the overall panorama of kayaking will be changed by the advent of BCU ratings. Change happens, of course, and I can remember when we thought nothing of paddling on Puget Sound in work boots, wool shirts, and jeans. Even *I* wouldn't do that now. But I bet there are guys of my generation who would. So maybe it will be good to have some criteria. I just don't think so. But the fat's in the fire now, regardless. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig: Curmodgeon mode: on Rob: you bet it is: http://www.myfreewallpapers.net/cartoons/pages/spy-vs-spy.shtml :) Craig: That is exactly how you'd do it if you wanted to take control over a sport and become the de-facto authority for bestowing credentials. You would get your own people involved in every symposium, give them maximum exposure to the most potential students and get maximum exposure to media. In fact, it's a classic move. Get in first, get in quick, and get established. Rob: In Paul Newman's words, impersonating Butch Cassidy: "Who ARE those guys!" Craig: This is not to say that all the BCU instructors are interested in control... or even any of them. But what it does mean is that right now BCU is positioned to be *the* world-wide authority over who is "qualfied" to be a coach, instructor, or even a paddler at certain levels. Once that authority is established it then becomes easy to encourage insurance underwriters, clubs, schools and other symposia to use the newly establlished criteria as the base line for activities involving those skills. And BCU-certified paddlers would be crazy not to be enthusiastic over something that helps them get more clients and/or more jobs. Rob: Is anybody but us paying attention? I get a few questions about *rowing* my kayak from neighbors or folks at the take out, but really, who ever heard of the BCU or the ACA for that matter outside the small sport of kayaking. It's barely an Olympic level sport that gets less coverage than Shuffling and those in the Olympics almost have nothing to do with the BCU. I'll tell you what, I have friends in the UK and I've been on a couple of Grand Canyon trips with many of them, they were as daft to *BCU issues* as most of us. In fact, one of them is currently the president of the BCU. If there was more than one member of the BCU on the trip besides him, I'd be surprised. One doesn't have to be a member of the BCU, to take a star (read: performance test), only if you are on a path to be a BCU coach. Craig, go over to www.ukskgb.co.uk, or the whitewater chapter of www.ukrgb.co.uk and delve into the British *BCU Issues* threads. They are pretty savage. For control mongers, I'd take them on, anyday. Finally, they are in absolutely no position to underwrite anything here, or be the defacto standard. Read this thread and tell me the *kayak dominos* are about to fall: http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=55873 Craig: Why do I think that it's about the money? Partly because I've noticed that classes leading to BCU certs are more expensive... and it's multi-tiered. Step one is to take a course to get you ready for the test. Part two is take the test. This is a classic way to maximize income. And also because the credentials require you to make continued payments to the BCU to retain them (I don't even have to do that to the FAA to maintan my pilot's license). If your membership lapses so does your certification. Unviersities would love that scheme too. Got a BS degree?.... only $1000 every four years to your alma-mater to keep that degree valid. Or spend four years in classes and then pony up another $10k to take the exam to get your diploma. Rob: I'm not a member of the BCU. I took clinics and assessments from the. For the brief time I took a coaching clinic, I became a member. My motivation was that as an occasional trip leader for the Washington Kayak Club, if someone looked like they'd need some coaching, to put it politely, I'd do it the right way. Now, onto your other point, clinics that teach to a standard rarely have students that just nail everything and in 30 minutes after 2 days covering foundation strokes they just wow the coach and they move to the next level. I'd call that an extreme minority, or a person taking a clinic well below their level in the first place which is counterproductive. A clinic that requires an assessment after the fact usually has some weighty material and it might take some time to go over. In my experience, 2* was 20 minutes and a same day gig; 3* was cheap and fast; 4* was a 1 day affair, but not particularly expensive; 5* was a 2 day affair and it needed to be. You are a professional mariner, you know what the ocean is like, you tell me what kayak leadership awards should be on the open ocean. Craig: Does this remind you of any other professional accreditation systems? Like the PE (professional engineer) exams? Fifty years ago only a few structures-based engineers bothered to get a PE; now it's almost all of them if they want to be in a supervisory position. Rob: Again, I make no continued payments to the BCU and was never required to under star or performance tests. To be a coach, yes, but I'm not a coach and only while I took a coach clinic did I subscribe to them. Hell, I pay the ACA 60 bucks a year for a family membership because my club requires ACA insurance for pools, trip participation or trip leadership. Craig: Are the courses useful? Well of course. They'd have to be in order to cement their position as *the* authority. If the courses weren't useful then no one would take them serously. That people do take them seriously as a training venue doesn't necessarily mitigate the other scenario. Rob: Again, you use the word *authority* as if sea kayaking, people disappearing behind headlands, the ultimate low viz sport, meant anything to anyone but us kayak nerds. C'mon Craig, The president of the BCU has a day job. I know this for a fact. This is as low brow as it gets. Most kayakers are trying to find ways to make tie down straps because the tie down strap kayak mafia has it out for them. *Authority* and kayaking on fresh or salt has about as much impact as Tao Berman's underwear photo to the world of high fashion. Craig: Schools love this because they make money in every direction. Once the school has a BCU coach qualified to anoint other coaches and bestow stars they can get a leg up on the competition. "We have the only 5 star BCU coach on the West Coast."B Where can you get certified? By someone who is already certified. Profit from the class and then profit again from the test. Rob: and they are so rich, too. Look at them roll out of their Jaguars to teach the unwashed. And who is their competition? I see way more schools of the Otter Bar/Zoar/Kayak Academy stripe than I do anything affiliated with the BCU. This is no David vs Goliath moment. This is David's pet cat, Rico, vs Goliath. Craig: Q) Does it mean that no one without BCU credentials will be employable as a guide or instructor? A) Not right now but I predict that it will be the minimum requirement before long and that will be pushed by insurance underwriters at first... and then required before long. Rob: Go ask your State Farm agent, or whoever you insure with what he thinks of Nigel's latest boat. Just like that. Let me know what he says. They are still barely trying to convey the recent addition to Websters: *Euro Paddle.* CraigQ) Does it mean that you will need BCU certificaton to rent a kayak? A) Yes, almost certainly this will be imposed by insurers on businesses who rent kayaks. Level 1 or 2 would be the minimum. Next time you are in Monterey, CA, ask them what you need. Last I checked it was a Monterey Bay Kayak certificate. Buy a Feathercraft and skip all the rental owner hubris. Or, build a folder based on Tom Yost's designs. Craig: Q) Does it mean the end of kayaking? A) Well no. But it could spell the end of what many of us now think of as the freedom to kayak. Bureaucracies love paper solutions and there's not much better than a credential to make them believe that all the potental problems have been solved. Witness the application of uncommon sense to offshore kayaking in Australia and NZ. You could be asked to show your BCU card to harbor patrol, USCG or other police agency. This would absolve them of any liability. "We don't know why he died but when we saw his BCU 4 certification we figured he was qualified to paddle in those conditions so we let him be." Don't have the certification card? Get back to within 100 yards of the shoreline please. Rob: This would be the liberal wing of the American democrat party enforcing a solution to a non-problem. Ask Harry Reid what his take is on the latest Derek Hutchinson video is. Again, nobody knows what this stuff is. Ask a coasty what his preference is, the BCU or ACA. Craig: Q) Will authorities come to rely on BCU certification as the primary qualification to engage in paddling activities. A) Yup. I think that it's only a matter of time. And your membership better be paid up. Rob: THUMP! (The sound of my head hitting the desk.) Craig: Curmudgeon Mode: Off. Rob: Thank God! Craig: I don't know if this will be good for paddling in general or not but I'm pretty sure the overall panorama of kayaking will be changed by the advent of BCU ratings. Change happens, of course, and I can remember when we thought nothing of paddling on Puget Sound in work boots, wool shirts, and jeans. Even *I* wouldn't do that now. But I bet there are guys of my generation who would. So maybe it will be good to have some criteria. I just don't think so. But the fat's in the fire now, regardless. Rob: When government decides to ask their best ally, the UK, to intervene on our behalf for small boat handling, you have more things to worry about than a flask of tea in your (mandated) day hatch. That last bit was a joke...get it? Cheers, Rob G B *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At some risk of making the thread boring: On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 7:01 PM, <rcgibbert_at_aol.com> wrote: > > Craig: Curmodgeon mode: on > > Rob: you bet it is: > > Now, now.... > > Rob: In Paul Newman's words, impersonating Butch Cassidy: "Who ARE those > guys!" > The only game in town... actually. > > Rob: Is anybody but us paying attention? I get a few questions about > *rowing* my kayak from neighbors or folks at the take out, but really, who > ever heard of the BCU or the ACA for that matter outside the small sport of > kayaking. > I thought we were talking about "us". And we're certainly on the radar screen of the public; often as a nutty fringe group. It's fertile ground for an organization to come up with a panoply of standards and set itself up as the arbiter of skills. Politicians love paper solutions (have I said that before?) and this one is a doozy. > > Rob: I'm not a member of the BCU. I took clinics and assessments from the. > For the brief time I took a coaching clinic, I became a member. My > motivation was that as an occasional trip leader for the Washington Kayak > Club, if someone looked like they'd need some coaching, But you were a member of BCU... and if you are no longer a member then your certification as a coach is no longer valid. Will you have to re-certify if you need that certification? A clinic that requires an assessment after the fact usually has some weighty > material and it might take some time to go over. In my experience, 2* was 20 > minutes and a same day gig; 3* was cheap and fast; 4* was a 1 day affair, > but not particularly expensive; 5* was a 2 day affair and it needed to be. > You are a professional mariner, you know what the ocean is like, you tell me > what kayak leadership awards should be on the open ocean. > >From what I can see *every* level requires an "assessment" (e.g.: test). You pay for the clinic to teach you how to pass the test and then you pay for the test. If you fail the test they tell you what you failed on and then you retake the clinic and retake the test. Paying, again, for both. I'm not sure why they can't just certify you within the clinic. Oh, wait... I guess I am sure, after all. > > Rob: Again, I make no continued payments to the BCU and was never required > to under star or performance tests. To be a coach, yes, but I'm not a coach > and only while I took a coach clinic did I subscribe to them. Hell, I pay > the ACA 60 bucks a year for a family membership because my club requires ACA > insurance for pools, trip participation or trip leadership. > You seem to be confused in that I'm stating that all the problems I foresee are here now. I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is that it won't take long for the underwriters involved with the business aspect of kayaking to realize that BCU accreditation is a way to show - on paper at least - that the operation they are insuring is insurable. This starts with the "coaches" (instructors). It's not likely to end there. > > Rob: Again, you use the word *authority* as if sea kayaking, people > disappearing behind headlands, the ultimate low viz sport, meant anything to > anyone but us kayak nerds. C'mon Craig, The president of the BCU has a day > job. I know this for a fact. This is as low brow as it gets. Again, you seem to think that what the BCU is today is what it will be tomorrow. And while kayaking may be "low viz" to the public at large we are not low viz to the insurance industry nor to the politicians trying to come up with "solutions" to public safety that will get them re-elected. > Most kayakers are trying to find ways to make tie down straps because the > tie down strap kayak mafia has it out for them. *Authority* and kayaking on > fresh or salt has about as much impact as Tao Berman's underwear photo to > the world of high fashion. > This is exactly why so many kayakers are not in favor of BCU standards. Some of us just want to paddle and are not interested in passing tests. The BCU looks like a looming "authority" to us and it makes us uncomfortable. > > Rob: and they are so rich, too. Look at them roll out of their Jaguars to > teach the unwashed. This is a red herring argument. Schools don't have to be "rich" to make a living. And if they all have to pony up to become BCU certified clinics (and yes, I know there is no such thing - yet) they might even make less. > And who is their competition? I see way more schools of the Otter > Bar/Zoar/Kayak Academy stripe than I do anything affiliated with the BCU. > This is no David vs Goliath moment. This is David's pet cat, Rico, vs > Goliath. > The Puget Sound area must have at least 15 businesses engaged in training paddlers. They are all pretty much in competition with each other, wouldn't you think? If one or two of them could somehow confince new paddlers that BCU certification was important enough to pay extra they might be in a better competitive position that the others. Or maybe, within 5 or 10 years, they'd all have to be BCU certified just to stay in business. Some of us worry about this. > > Rob: Go ask your State Farm agent, or whoever you insure with what he > thinks of Nigel's latest boat. Just like that. Let me know what he says. > They are still barely trying to convey the recent addition to Websters: > *Euro Paddle.* > Go ask George Gronseth how much he has to pay each year for liability insurance for his business, The Kayak Academy, and whether or not a huge increase might put him out of the business. Are you sure you're paying attention here? > > Next time you are in Monterey, CA, ask them what you need. Last I checked > it was a Monterey Bay Kayak certificate. Buy a Feathercraft and skip all the > rental owner hubris. Or, build a folder based on Tom Yost's designs. > Once again... I am not addressing the status quo at the moment. I am addressing what many of us feel is in the future. I agree that you do not need anything more than, "oh ya... I can paddle" to rent a kayak. I think that this is about to change. Rob: This would be the liberal wing of the American democrat party enforcing > a solution to a non-problem. Ask Harry Reid what his take is on the latest > Derek Hutchinson video is. Again, nobody knows what this stuff is. Ask a > coasty what his preference is, the BCU or ACA. > Last I looked the insurance industry was mostly Republican. The BCU is not on anyone's radar except for those of us engaged in kayaking at the moment. This could change and seriously affect the way we paddle. Read some of Paul's and Peter's posts if you don't think that well-meaning people with political power can change the way you kayak. > > Rob: THUMP! (The sound of my head hitting the desk.) > Do you really think that once there are standards no one will think to enforce them? There are areas of Australia where you cannot paddle more than 2nm off the coast right now. If the BCU sets itself up as the arbiter of standards in kayaking you can bet your bippy some politician will take notice. Especially if someone who decided to paddle their SOT from Seattle to Dutch Harbor disappears and their Mom starts a campaign to "make kayaking safer". Perhaps you'd need that BCU cert to paddle more than 2nm from shore off NSW. > > Craig: Curmudgeon Mode: Off. > > Rob: Thank God! > You've displayed your share of curmudgeonry, yourself, you know. :) Rob: When government decides to ask their best ally, the UK, to intervene on > our behalf for small boat handling, you have more things to worry about than > a flask of tea in your (mandated) day hatch. That last bit was a joke...get > it? > The US government is not asking the BCU to intervene; but the BCU is in here already. Some of us think that it might not be all that great. And I think I've put forward enough to make our concerns real not imagined. Not that none of us think that training is bad. Ten years ago almost no sea kayakers who had not been w/w kayakers could roll. I think that has changed. Five years ago most sea kayakers didn't even have drysuits; that, too, has changed. But training has many forms not just one form and BCU looks like it would like nothing better than to have just one form. I'd rather not see that. Can you not see at least a little sense in this attitude? Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig: At some risk of making the thread boring: Rob: Never. Craig: Now, now.... Rob: I thought that was funny! No? Craig: The only game in town... actually. Rob: There are more great coaches unaffiliated with the BCU than affiliated. Craig:I thought we were talking about "us". And we're certainly on the radar screen of the public; often as a nutty fringe group. It's fertile ground for an organization to come up with a panoply of standards and set itself up as the arbiter of skills. Politicians love paper solutions (have I said that before?) and this one is a doozy. Rob: Are we not making backpacks and outdoor products in Vietnam. As far as I can tell, the Domino Theory of Kayaker Control Mechanisms is not happening. Craig: But you were a member of BCU... and if you are no longer a member then your certification as a coach is no longer valid. Will you have to re-certify if you need that certification? Rob: I was never a coach. I took a training once, at the time I was Coach 2 T (as in Trainee), were I ever needed to coach, say on a day trip, I wanted the ability to teach a simple construct. Nothing more. For simple star tests, you need not be a member. My star tests are still valid, membership or not, despite the recent changes to the BCU/UKCC scheme. Craig: From what I can see *every* level requires an "assessment" (e.g.: test). You pay for the clinic to teach you how to pass the test and then you pay for the test. If you fail the test they tell you what you failed on and then you retake the clinic and retake the test. Paying, again, for both. I'm not sure why they can't just certify you within the clinic. Oh, wait... I guess I am sure, after all. Rob: If you are that motivated you just retake the assessment. In the UK, the system has evolved around the club system and the structure can be alot less formal than it is here. I do think some things are lost in translation. If you want to get into *fluoridated water territory* I pay the ACA 60 bucks a year for a family membership (? or something like that) because my club requires ACA insurance for pools, trip participation or trip leadership. Let's say I had an old 4* award in the BCU and wanted to take a 5* course. The recent changes to the BCU/UKCC might have me retake the newly enhanced 4*, but that is now a different thing. It is up to the paying customer whether they want to do that or not and the success of the scheme will be based on whether they actually do. I'm not that with it these days, so I'm just looking at it from outside just like you are. Craig: You seem to be confused in that I'm stating that all the problems I foresee are here now. I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is that it won't take long for the underwriters involved with the business aspect of kayaking to realize that BCU accreditation is a way to show - on paper at least - that the operation they are insuring is insurable. This starts with the "coaches" (instructors). It's not likely to end there. Rob: There are some business aspects of kayaking, insuring and what not, but really, what are these manifesting themselves in the simple ability to plop your boat down in a state park and disappear beyond a headland? Your fears are simply not reality. I can go to a couple of stores in the Puget Sound and demo a boat to see if I like it, I can demo a whitwater or sea boat for a day, no problem. How many boats did you demo at the recent West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium? If I wanted to be a raft guide I'm pretty sure I'd have to go to a raft guide school before an outfitter would show me. I don't even know if there is a British Raft Guide Union or not, or if I would even call them. Craig: Again, you seem to think that what the BCU is today is what it will be tomorrow. And while kayaking may be "low viz" to the public at large we are not low viz to the insurance industry nor to the politicians trying to come up with "solutions" to public safety that will get them re-elected. Rob: Reelected? Ibve only come across a few lines in my life insurance that wonbt cover ^mountaineeringb , no suggestion of whitewater boating, or sea kayaking. There are those lily livered places that donbt cover the aforementioned but you have to look for it. And you are worried about the BCU? Craig: This is exactly why so many kayakers are not in favor of BCU standards. Some of us just want to paddle and are not interested in passing tests. The BCU looks like a looming "authority" to us and it makes us uncomfortable. Rob: Ask yourself this, why is the ACA so impotent in this discussion? I'm even a member and yet I've never taken a course from them. I have from ACA trained instructors. I have assisted ACA instructors in nooby trainings in ACA insured events. Yet, you fear the BCU? I make a family membership payment once a year to them and one to my club. They are so *with it*, the ACA, that I might even get my updated card back in 2 or 3 months after payment. Ya, I really fear these guys. They might mess up kayaking by making themselves an authority or something. I do it because that is the current structure of my club. I made that analysis that the 100 bucks a year total for my wife and I going to the ACA and WA Kayak club was worth it to gain the benefit of cheap trainings that might be offered, day trips in places I've not been, new people to paddle with, etc. Usually, having had a curriculum based education gets you roped into basic education for new paddlers. They fed me at a couple of these events but that was about it. Happy to help out on occasion. Craig: This is a red herring argument. Schools don't have to be "rich" to make a living. And if they all have to pony up to become BCU certified clinics (and yes, I know there is no such thing - yet) they might even make less. Rob: The BCU-MIC will have you washing their landing craft, that I assure you. : ) Craig:The Puget Sound area must have at least 15 businesses engaged in training paddlers. They are all pretty much in competition with each other, wouldn't you think? If one or two of them could somehow confince new paddlers that BCU certification was important enough to pay extra they might be in a better competitive position that the others. Or maybe, within 5 or 10 years, they'd all have to be BCU certified just to stay in business. Some of us worry about this. Rob: Of the BCU world, Body Boat Blade is the primary school. They have trained lots of paddlers in some ways that go on to coach really inexpensive courses for the Washington Kayak Club. Really cheap, as in even a kayaker thinks they are cheap. Kayak Academy is equally reknowned, for good reason, but not a BCU affiliated. Who else? Does Nigel Foster teach BCU clinics or Nigel Foster clinics? Every one I've seen is an Nigel Foster clinic. This is a pretty thin branch to be making predictions of sport bureaucratization upon. Craig:Go ask George Gronseth how much he has to pay each year for liability insurance for his business, The Kayak Academy, and whether or not a huge increase might put him out of the business. Are you sure you're paying attention here? Rob: This has nothing to do with the BCU, whatsoever. This is an insurance risk calculation. Tell your insurer that you are going to summit Denali this year. Does the sport of mountaineering still go on? Craig: Once again... I am not addressing the status quo at the moment. I am addressing what many of us feel is in the future. I agree that you do not need anything more than, "oh ya... I can paddle" to rent a kayak. I think that this is about to change. Rob: Businesses should decide that in close consultation with their insurers and attorneys. I'm pretty sure the BCU is 5,000 miles away from this, as we speak. After Denali, tell your insurer it's on to Everest! Craig: Last I looked the insurance industry was mostly Republican. The BCU is not on anyone's radar except for those of us engaged in kayaking at the moment. This could change and seriously affect the way we paddle. Read some of Paul's and Peter's posts if you don't think that well-meaning people with political power can change the way you kayak. Rob: Really? Most people I paddle with have had or still have an ACA card, but little else to do with the organization. Some coach as volunteers once in awhile. The BCU is a minority, with an even lower minority of active coaches in my circles. They are pretty good at staying out of the way, based on my experience. Craig:Do you really think that once there are standards no one will think to enforce them? There are areas of Australia where you cannot paddle more than 2nm off the coast right now. If the BCU sets itself up as the arbiter of standards in kayaking you can bet your bippy some politician will take notice. Especially if someone who decided to paddle their SOT from Seattle to Dutch Harbor disappears and their Mom starts a campaign to "make kayaking safer". Perhaps you'd need that BCU cert to paddle more than 2nm from shore off NSW. Rob: People die every year in kayaking. People die in their jeans and cotton sweatshirts in their canoes. People die every year in rafting accidents. My state senator has never once grabbed me by the shoulder and said *Son, we are going to change the way you kayak.* Australia is not America. Next time you want to demo a new boat, go to the outfitter and ask. This hasn't changed. Craig:You've displayed your share of curmudgeonry, yourself, you know. :) Rob: back in the day they used to call it a smart alleck. : ) Craig: The US government is not asking the BCU to intervene; but the BCU is in here already. Some of us think that it might not be all that great. And I think I've put forward enough to make our concerns real not imagined. Rob: I disagree, based on all the points I've countered yours with. Craig: Not that none of us think that training is bad. Ten years ago almost no sea kayakers who had not been w/w kayakers could roll. I think that has changed. Five years ago most sea kayakers didn't even have drysuits; that, too, has changed. But training has many forms not just one form and BCU looks like it would like nothing better than to have just one form. Rob: The BCU is not monolithic. It has a diversity of opinion as varied as any organization gets. What do you base your opinion on? As far as sea kayakers and progression goes I see an improvement in equipment and attitudes all over the place. Why do you think that is, Craig? Do you see any connection to a curriculum based scheme such as ACA, BCU or CRCA and the generally speaking, higher level of performance of today vs 10 years ago? And yet nobody's state senator has yet grabbed them by the shoulder and said, *Son, we are going to change the way you kayak.* The typical paddler in sea kayaking sees all the pretty boats, has a friend that got them into it and takes a intro course at a shop. If they stay with it they might join the club. Many just hang in the periphery and pay a little attention to an internet group and paddle on Saturdays. Some take a clinic. Sometimes that puts them in contact with these dreaded BCU and ACA coaches. In our club, most are volunteers who spent after tax money on clinics to be better prepared to do this once in awhile. The only way they will actually go after the sport is to tax your boat as they are doing in OR and ID. In WA, they screwed that up by having you buy a permit for your car at the Dept of Natural Resource put ins on rivers and the sound. Now they would have a much harder time going back to your boat. Politicians have no idea about the BCU, they do see revenue in the form of permits and tax stamps but that is a completely different thing. Craig: I'd rather not see that. Can you not see at least a little sense in this attitude? Rob: For your argument to succeed, you would have to have some valid claim that the ACA rep and the BCU rep had mined the participation rosters of their state clubs and headed for the state assembly house and gone to work. Got any? Show me something that the volunteer coach at the pool session teaching the nooby how to roll is secretly grooming them for secret rites in an all pervasive BCU, soon to open an affiliate in the state capitol. Cheers, Rob G = *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:46 AM, <rcgibbert_at_aol.com> wrote: > > Craig: I'd rather not see that. Can you not see at least a little sense in > this attitude? > > Rob: For your argument to succeed, you would have to have some valid claim > that the ACA rep and the BCU rep had mined the participation rosters of > their state clubs and headed for the state assembly house and gone to work. > Got any? Show me something that the volunteer coach at the pool session > teaching the nooby how to roll is secretly grooming them for secret rites in > an all pervasive BCU, soon to open an affiliate in the state capitol. > For your argument to succeed you need to convince us that what we have seen happen in other sports simply cannot happen here. All my argument needs to succeed is to put forward some credible concerns and a few examples. Robert Cline's remarks about the early days of SCUBA certification in the 1970s is a perfect example of how what seems like a common sense system can be perverted into a accreditation process with an authority in charge. Once politicians begin to believe that insurance will solve a "problem" you can bet that insurance will become mandatory; and along with it a slew of rules. In this state - and in most - you cannot drive your car legally without liability insurance. In fact you cannot even register your car without showing insurance. Stopped by a cop? He will ask to see your driver's license and proof of insurance. The insurance has no bearing on whether you are competent as a driver, can see well enough, or anything other than your ability to write out a check. This is the power of insurance and politics. It's a paper solution that is nearly impossible to avoid. Within ten years you will not be able to teach kayaking as a business without having BCU certification. Every guide will need a BCU cert in order to get a job. Most rentals will require a level 1 course (which they will gladly provide for only $50). By the time an instructor reaches Level 5 in any discipline (s)he will have over $10,000 invested in just the courses and "assessments" alone. (Just one course leading to an assessment in the UK commonly costs 300 pounds now!) The WSCKS (Port Townsend kayak seminar) will devote several sessions to BCU certification. Don't believe me? Try to rent a SCUBA outfit without being a "certified diver" and see how far you get. Don't have one? No worries. The store you tried to rent from will have a course leading to certification. Try to get a job as a ski instructor without being certified. And if business falls off because too many people learned last year's "approved technique" why you can just have this year's "approved technique". This is the power of certification authorities when they combine with underwriters and politics. It's all for our own good. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > For your argument to succeed you need to convince us that what we have seen > happen in other sports simply cannot happen here. That rather turns the rules of argument on their head, doesn't it? Rather like "Obama was born in Kenya. Prove he wasn't!" <snip> > Within ten years you will not be able to teach kayaking as a business > without having BCU certification. Every guide will need a BCU cert in order > to get a job. Most rentals will require a level 1 course (which they will > gladly provide for only $50). None of this has happened in the last 20 years I've been paddling, so I'm having trouble understanding why it's inevitable in the next 10. I think the chances of American or Canadian authorities requiring a certification from an UK source are slim to none. And no outfitter is going to require a course for a rental, at least not for more than half a season, at which time he would be out of business. Craig, I'm thinking you might ask your friendly family physician to up your meds a little. ;) Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Steve Cramer <cramersec_at_charter.net>wrote: > Craig Jungers wrote: > >> For your argument to succeed you need to convince us that what we have >> seen >> happen in other sports simply cannot happen here. >> > > That rather turns the rules of argument on their head, doesn't it? Rather > like "Obama was born in Kenya. Prove he wasn't!" > If it can happen in skiing and happen in SCUBA why couldn't it happen in kayaking? Assurances that it just can't seem meaningless. That does not seem to be a specious point to me. What is the difference between the business models in SCUBA or skiing and paddling that would make it not happen in the sport of kayaking? BCU certifications have already, in just the past year, become a significant factor in the hiring of instructors and guides. Particularly at seminars. > I think the chances of American or Canadian authorities requiring a > certification from an UK source are slim to none. And no outfitter is going > to require a course for a rental, at least not for more than half a season, > at which time he would be out of business. > > All the SCUBA shops require certification for a rental. They aren't all going out of business because of it because they ALL have to do it. It's not because it's a law... it's because their liability insurance requires it. > > Craig, I'm thinking you might ask your friendly family physician to up your > meds a little. ;) > > Ok... that's it for me. I'm done if this is the direction the discussion is going to take. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hang in there Craig - being accused of Paranoia is no reason to stop thinking that your risk-assessment has been incorrect... that's what sank the Titanic. I am sensitized - after our recent (New Zealand) brush with 'helpful' regulators - to the ease with which political animals will seize upon anything that makes them look constructive - makes them look like they are earning their keep. How widespread is the _legal_ (not insurance-induced) requirement for ACA certification for kayak instructors in the US ? Over on the ConnYak forum, they are currently debating the pending bill (Massachusetts) that makes it a legal requirement for instructors to make students practice wet-exits before they go into water deeper than 5'. I'm not sure that I need to go into the merits of governments micro-managing kayak instruction to this level, but does anyone have stats on how many students currently die during beginners' instruction ? The main relevance to Craig & Rob's debate is that the proposed bill also has a legal requirement for instructors to be ACA certified... "Anyone who holds himself out as a kayak instructor for hire shall obtain and maintain: (i) first aid training approved by the department of public health; (ii) cardiopulmonary resuscitation training approved by the department of public health; and (iii) kayak instructor certification from the American Canoe Association, or equivalent water training." Yes - the last 4 words give some hope that real-world skills are an acceptable alternative (albeit a bit hard to prove) - but is it paranoid to say "for how long". Anyway, I see it as an obvious point on a trend-line towards tighter Governmental control on our sport. We can like it, lump it, or discuss ways to minimise the attractiveness of it to the political animals out there who are looking for something to do with their idle hands... Oh and this season our local outfitters are having a very serious re-think about how to stay in business - if they can't prove that customers are 'safe to rent to'. One of the biggest said to me (two weeks ago) "I can't rent to people, but I can sell exactly the same gear to them - where's the logic in that ?" Put that to some regulators - would they see it as a door to open, or a door to close ? I don't _think_ I'm paranoid ;-) (The initial ConnYak posting is here if you want to look at the thread.) http://www.connyak.org/cgi-bin/BBS.pl/noframes/read/75072 Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In the last 10 years participation of this sport is down. Fewer boats are being sold is the hallmark of that statistic. In the Puget Sound there are fewer kayak stores. What was the participation level at the West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium this year? I heard it was less. I've been reading the same journals you have plus a few whitewater based ones and nobody 10 years ago predicted a downturn of this level 10 years ago. Nor were those decrying certification as the threatening defacto standard correct 10 years ago about things today. A full decade later it is still 10 years from now we are going to go the way of the automobile and the SCUBA people. And yet participation is down in this sport and the BCU or ACA scheme isn't triumphant in what people have alledged about them. These ominpresent fears have time and again failed to manifest themselves in reality. Cheers, Rob G Craig: For your argument to succeed you need to convince us that what we have seen happen in other sports simply cannot happen here. All my argument needs to succeed is to put forward some credible concerns and a few examples. Robert Cline's remarks about the early days of SCUBA certification in the 1970s is a perfect example of how what seems like a common sense system can be perverted into a accreditation process with an authority in charge. Once politicians begin to believe that insurance will solve a "problem" you can bet that insurance will become mandatory; and along with it a slew of rules. In this state - and in most - you cannot drive your car legally without liability insurance. In fact you cannot even register your car without showing insurance. Stopped by a cop? He will ask to see your driver's license and proof of insurance. The insurance has no bearing on whether you are competent as a driver, can see well enough, or anything other than your ability to write out a check. This is the power of insurance and politics. It's a paper solution that is nearly impossible to avoid. Within ten years you will not be able to teach kayaking as a business without having BCU certification. Every guide will need a BCU cert in order to get a job. Most rentals will require a level 1 course (which they will gladly provide for only $50). By the time an instructor reaches Level 5 in any discipline (s)he will have over $10,000 invested in just the courses and "assessments" alone. (Just one course leading to an assessment in the UK commonly costs 300 pounds now!) The WSCKS (Port Townsend kayak seminar) will devote several sessions to BCU certification. Don't believe me? Try to rent a SCUBA outfit without being a "certified diver" and see how far you get. Don't have one? No worries. The store you tried to rent from will have a course leading to certification. Try to get a job as a ski instructor without being certified. And if business falls off because too many people learned last year's "approved technique" why you can just have this year's "approved technique". This is the power of certification authorities when they combine with underwriters and politics. It's all for our own good. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.netB B = *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:16 PM, <rcgibbert_at_aol.com> wrote: > In the last 10 years participation of this sport is down. Fewer boats are > being sold is the hallmark of that statistic. In the Puget Sound there are > fewer kayak stores. What was the participation level at the West Coast Sea > Kayak Symposium this year? I heard it was less. I've been reading the same > journals you have plus a few whitewater based ones and nobody 10 years ago > predicted a downturn of this level 10 years ago. Nor were those decrying > certification as the threatening defacto standard correct 10 years ago about > things today. A full decade later it is still 10 years from now we are going > to go the way of the automobile and the SCUBA people. And yet participation > is down in this sport and the BCU or ACA scheme isn't triumphant in what > people have alledged about them. These ominpresent fears have time and again > failed to manifest themselves in reality. > > Over the past decade participation at all levels of kayaking is up, sales are up over ten years ago, there are more kayak stores than ten years ago. In the last year there has been a severe downturn. But participation at the Pt. Townsend seminars was up in previous years. BCU was barely on the radar as little as two years ago. Now it's an issue. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig> Over the past decade participation at all levels of kayaking is up, sales are up over ten years ago, there are more kayak stores than ten years ago. In the last year there has been a severe downturn. But participation at the Pt. Townsend seminars was up in previous years. BCU was barely on the radar as little as two years ago. Now it's an issue. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net The BCU as a controversial topic in North America is a very old topic. I had my first clinic in 99 or 2000 and in sea kayak circles there were lots of people trained by BCU coaches back then. As a topic It had a large presence throughout the 80's and 90's. Derek Hutchinson was controversial back then and he also brought with him BCU-like discussions. In 2008 he pronounced the *sun having set on the BCU* in the Andrew Elizaga video you can find on you tube. The BCU as a topical theme has enjoyed exposure in magazines for a very long time. As far as growth in the sport, I see about 60% of the retailers in this area as opposed to say, 2002. Go onto boatertalk.com and ask Corran Addison or Eric Jackson if the sport has grown or shrank. They will tell you the sport has contracted remarkably since the *heydey* of the late 90's and early millenium. I may be only seeing what I want to see, but I don't see anymore paddlers now then I did when I started. Cheers, Rob G = *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig said: BCU was barely on the radar as little as two years ago. Now it's an issue. Craig, Not really an issue. I've taken several BCU classes but have not taken any of their assessment tests. As a non-professional, I don't see a need for certifications. Two years ago, I travelled to Tadoussac, Canada and needed to rent two boats for my wife and I. We were meeting another couple who were driving up with their own boats. The owner of the kayak shop we rented from did not speak any English, and my French is very limited. Prior to going, I corresponded with the shop (don't know who translated their emails), and they really needed to know my skill level in order to rent boats without one of their guides going along. A letter from my favorite US BCU Level 5 coach did the trick. She wrote that I was skillful enough and experienced enough to lead trips, that I was skilled in rescue procedures, and showed good leadership skills for handling groups. She then went on to say that my paddling level varied between a 3 star and 4 star on any particular day. That was enough to get the shop to rent two boats to me. Steve Holtzman __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4530 (20091021) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Craig: Curmodgeon mode: on > > Rob: you bet it is: > > > Craig: That is exactly how you'd do it if you wanted to take control > over a sport and become the de-facto authority for bestowing > credentials. You would get your own people involved in every symposium, > give them maximum exposure to the most potential students and get > maximum exposure to media. In fact, it's a classic move. Get in first, > get in quick, and get established. > I was involved in the early days of SCUBA certification. Everybody jumped on the band wagon for certification under the fear of "it's going to be a legislated sport." Not long, insurance was in control of the certifying agencies. The agencies all required instructors to carry insurance...not to matter if the instructor was "judgment proof" anyway, as most were. It was no longer a personal decision. But, that made it even harder to make any money instructing and the instructor turnover increased. One of the directors of one of the certifying agencies that was instrumental in bringing insurance to the agency retired on a sailboat in California. I don't know if the insurance connection made this possible, but he ended up living what seemed to me a comfortable life. Cheers, Robert Cline *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Carey:You don't suppose some insurance company won't notice that there's a certification available, and write it in to their policy in order to avoid paying some claims? The goal of "for profit" insurance companies is to take in as much money as possible, and pay out as little money as possible.B Rob: It's been available for a significant period of time and they've yet to request it. If they pay out a few spendy claims they will simply stop insuring that category or charge an exhorbitant price for it. Certification wouldn't even be a discussion point. But none of this has anything to do with the central theme of the BCU taking over everything, in my view. Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This issue of kayak certification was a big topic in the first several issues of "Sea Kayaker Magazine," back in the mid eighties. As I remember Derek Hutchinson was asked his thoughts on the topic at that time and I believe he stated that the BCU was not interested in coming to the states. I guess they changed their minds. Having worked as a non-certified sea kayaking instructor for more then twenty years, today I can feel the BCU's presence in Southern California. The marketing campaign for the little stars is in full throttle - just see Steve Holtzman's last post. Where I work business is down, which I attribute mostly to the lousy economy, however I can't help but wonder. While I think Craig may be a little over the top (but just a little) I too worry about the issues Craig raises. I worked in a dive shop about a hundred years ago and like Robert I can definitely see some parallels between that sport and this. The good news is that if things do get really ugly in this sport I will, probably, by that time be pretty much done with it. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This thread has been a fascinating anthropological/psychological event to witness. I have learned a lot about my fellow paddlewisers and about the issues. Thanks! I have been an ACA member since 1966. I was a member most of my life in order to be eligible to be in kayak races. Even a large number of years ago I recognized the BCU coaches in the racing disciplines as terrific folks who really knew how to coach. When the opportunity arose in my post-racing life, as a sea kayaker, I joined the ACA Coastal Kayak Committee. My dream was to help professionalize the ACA instructor training and, thus, improve ACA instruction to equal or surpass the BCU system. Through no efforts of mine, the ACA now has a great core of Instructor Trainers and IT Educators who have set and maintained high standards. The ACA has done a good job of improving the standards, I'm proud to be a part of it. I wish the administrative side were a little tighter, but we do have good instructors. One consideration of the BCU thing is the enormous popularity of paddling in Great Britain and the more socialistic nature of British government. There are tons of people there who paddle and they are more accustomed than we are to regulation and rules for everything. I have no concern that BCU certification will ever be necessary in the US. Politicians can easily be swayed when their patriotism is questioned - no one, I think, would ever vote for requiring a foreign certification system in the good ole USA when the AMERICAN Canoe Association has its own certification. I think part of the attraction of the BCU system for paddlers is that it is foreign and we tend to be, in this country, a bit provincial when it comes to things British. Another part of the attraction is the BCU was more organized than the ACA a while ago when a lot of current paddlers got into the sport. Finally I lead wilderness therapy trips for a local youth counseling service. We go for ten days or so trips in the Everglades and Maine every year and have gone to Glacier Bay, Alaska and Georgian Bay, Ontario and other neat places. The insurance company has never asked for anything in the way of certification for any of the trip leaders. In fact, I'm the only one who is certified in kayaking. I'm not happy that the other adults on these trips are not good paddlers, but I train them as best I can while we are underway. The main thing is we take very little in the way of known risks. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim (Ace ACA man) said (snip: >I have no concern that BCU certification will ever be necessary in the US. Politicians can easily be swayed when their patriotism is questioned - no one, I think, would ever vote for requiring a foreign certification system in the good ole USA when the AMERICAN Canoe Association has its own certification.< Here in Canada the CRCA has things pretty much locked down - which is fine by me. It's a good organization with competent paddlers/educators at the helm and so far has exhibited professionalism comparable to the other germane systems but without the lack of uptake a new scheme sometimes suffers. Most clubs swing with the CRCA while the guide industry does its own thing keeping the government and underwriting providers happy as a seal in a bowl of sardines. However, the topic of certification still engenders heated exchanges now and again. Some of the smaller operators still hold on to BCU involvement, while others cross-pollinate - while most of us pay our annual dues in real time by being on the water and learning from experienced friends (in other words, no affiliation except bum time in the kayak doing one's own thang). Up here in the great white north land of real beer, we worry more about water access, restrictive infringements, personal risk from environment, and keeping a low profile on the "man's" radar. Local clubs affiliated with the CRCA promote the safety/goodwill/training in well-heeled yearly membership intervals, while many of the executive fight hard behind the scenes for paddlers "rights" (such as fighting the proposed Mega-Yacht Marina in Victoria's inner harbour). Paddlers are well-connected on internet forums and everyone, including visitors know we have a good thing going and all parties and levels of local through federal government need to work together to keep it that way. Just about every paddler I know, instructor, coach, forum moderator, outdoor magazine editor, retail operator and guide provider, marine-trail booster, kayak map-maker (et al) desires to retain the freedoms extant in Canadian paddling, improve paddling opportunities, while many even want a personal legacy in these regards. While I may be culpable of Pollyannaism, I know enough to know the young, overly-optimistic girl played by Haley Mills did eventually succumb to a spinal cord injury restricting her freedoms severely. Certainly, Canada could suffer irreparable damage to our paddling freedoms, but I don't think it will come through a BCU breach into Canadian certification. I've learned to stay out of these discussions as much as possible (and on other forums too). It's too easy to offend someone, say something too readily misconstrued, get off on a tangent, or misrepresent regional issues, yet...I do love my paddling here in Canada, as do most of you I rather think who come up here, and do want to indicate things are being worked out here from my understanding of events and attitudes. The BCU are good people. The instruction and coaching are world-class. Previous representative attempts may have been world-ass, but don't chuck the whole system out on account of a few individuals. I rather think the only reason the BCU bulged out of the UK was due to a partial vacuum. We all know that's an oxymoron. So is the "British Canoe Union" in North America. I'll go now. :-) Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Oh Jim, Forgot the link: http://www.paddlingcanada.com/courses.asp Doug Jim (Ace ACA man) said (snip: >I have no concern that BCU certification will ever be necessary in the US. Politicians can easily be swayed when their patriotism is questioned - no one, I think, would ever vote for requiring a foreign certification system in the good ole USA when the AMERICAN Canoe Association has its own certification.< Here in Canada the CRCA has things pretty much locked down - which is fine by me. It's a good organization with competent paddlers/educators at the helm and so far has exhibited professionalism comparable to the other germane systems but without the lack of uptake a new scheme sometimes suffers. Most clubs swing with the CRCA while the guide industry does its own thing keeping the government and underwriting providers happy as a seal in a bowl of sardines. However, the topic of certification still engenders heated exchanges now and again. Some of the smaller operators still hold on to BCU involvement, while others cross-pollinate - while most of us pay our annual dues in real time by being on the water and learning from experienced friends (in other words, no affiliation except bum time in the kayak doing one's own thang). Up here in the great white north land of real beer, we worry more about water access, restrictive infringements, personal risk from environment, and keeping a low profile on the "man's" radar. Local clubs affiliated with the CRCA promote the safety/goodwill/training in well-heeled yearly membership intervals, while many of the executive fight hard behind the scenes for paddlers "rights" (such as fighting the proposed Mega-Yacht Marina in Victoria's inner harbour). Paddlers are well-connected on internet forums and everyone, including visitors know we have a good thing going and all parties and levels of local through federal government need to work together to keep it that way. Just about every paddler I know, instructor, coach, forum moderator, outdoor magazine editor, retail operator and guide provider, marine-trail booster, kayak map-maker (et al) desires to retain the freedoms extant in Canadian paddling, improve paddling opportunities, while many even want a personal legacy in these regards. While I may be culpable of Pollyannaism, I know enough to know the young, overly-optimistic girl played by Haley Mills did eventually succumb to a spinal cord injury restricting her freedoms severely. Certainly, Canada could suffer irreparable damage to our paddling freedoms, but I don't think it will come through a BCU breach into Canadian certification. I've learned to stay out of these discussions as much as possible (and on other forums too). It's too easy to offend someone, say something too readily misconstrued, get off on a tangent, or misrepresent regional issues, yet...I do love my paddling here in Canada, as do most of you I rather think who come up here, and do want to indicate things are being worked out here from my understanding of events and attitudes. The BCU are good people. The instruction and coaching are world-class. Previous representative attempts may have been world-ass, but don't chuck the whole system out on account of a few individuals. I rather think the only reason the BCU bulged out of the UK was due to a partial vacuum. We all know that's an oxymoron. So is the "British Canoe Union" in North America. I'll go now. :-) Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
http://www.nspn.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=6474&hl= Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
James Farrelly wrote: > http://www.nspn.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=6474&hl= "(ii) wet exit training, which training shall be conducted prior to a student operating a kayak unsupervised or in water deeper than 5 feet." They must have long arms in Massachusetts. My students are always supervised (though perhaps from 100 yards away), so I would be good to skip the wet exit training. Which I never do, BTW. Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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