Yup, idiots are humans, too, even if it is hard to believe. And the chances of survival increases a bit if you wear your PFD, wooly hat and spray skirt, but again and again people who should have known better - like that world champion class Swede, that just went for a paddle with his mate, racing each other a little, without any PFD, or dry suit, and without a spray skirt. Somehow he rolled, and died due to the fact that the water was cold and he didn't even bring anything dry to put on! SO, if the water is real warm, and you have access to both dry clothes, and a pfd (and possibly a cell phone/EPIRB), I see no real harm in it, but without a fitting spray skirt is lowering your chances too much for my liking! Last post before Thailand - yippee! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The "idiot" issue played out in the following way for Becky and me, albeit not on the issue of whether to wear a PFD or not. It might be an anecdote which would be useful in educating paddlers in your group. BTW, if this discussion bores you, go to the bottom line, just above my sig. -------------- Like most self-taught paddlers, we dived right in on our cold waters, paddling in whatever clothing our personal heat balance required: on bright sunshiny days, shorts and a T-shirt and a PFD; on colder, gloomier days, fleece gear tops, sometimes bottoms, and raingear when the wet came down. In winter when everything was reallly cold, more fleece, heavier raingear, warmer headgear, and so forth. Of course, while paddling vigorously, we would shed some of this stuff, even on cold days, to agoid that sweat thang! Then I read the Broze/Gronseth tome "Deep Trouble." Ooops. Lotta people got in trouble or died because they did not dress for immersion. I read it first, and invested in rubber and a dry top. Plus, I wore the stuff, depending on what the water temp was. [Paddlewise and its predecesser wier influential in modifying my behavior, also -- this is _ancient_ history!] Becky got a farmer john, also, but it was hell and a lot of interpersonal friction getting her to wear it. Then she read Deep Trouble. What she took away was two things: 1. She'd be in trouble immersed in cold water without the rubber; and, 2. Her predicament would _endanger_ _me_ as I compromised my own safety attempting to rescue her. She already knew the rubber would keep her warmer before Deep Trouble. But, the BOTTOM LINE for her was this: You endanger your companions if you do not protect yourself adequately. NOBODY will float calmly beside a drowning hypothermic person and IGNORE them. Nobody will, despite what they say from an armchair. In short, you owe it to your paddling buddies to do the right thing, whatever it is, for _their_ sake. After all, you will be in a "happier place" if they do the same for you, right? [Thanks you, Mark, for that happy place business; I plan to use it.] -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Those guys were idiots Tord, no, Idiots with a capitol I. But, I'm glad there was an article on them as the fitness crowd needs to be held to task for the different stance they take on gear, etc. DL Tord said: Yup, idiots are humans, too, even if it is hard to believe. And the chances of survival increases a bit if you wear your PFD, wooly hat and spray skirt, but again and again people who should have known better - like that world champion class Swede, that just went for a paddle with his mate, racing each other a little, without any PFD, or dry suit, and without a spray skirt. Somehow he rolled, and died due to the fact that the water was cold and he didn't even bring anything dry to put on! SO, if the water is real warm, and you have access to both dry clothes, and a pfd (and possibly a cell phone/EPIRB), I see no real harm in it, but without a fitting spray skirt is lowering your chances too much for my liking! Last post before Thailand - yippee! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Speaking of idiots and victims (and not all are both), on the busy Southeastern WW rivers, if you tried to help out every swimmer near you, you'd never make it to the take-out in daylight. Unless the problem is life threatening, we mostly watch them float by. I was once doing a canoe course on our local Class II in June. Warm day, warm water. That river tends to be full of young people in bathing suits paddling Keowees, no PFD (the outfitter gives them one, but....), no skirt, lots of beer. I had to rescue one of my students who had broached, flipped, exited, and pinned the boat on a rock. Before I could respond, a young lady as described above pinned on top of my student's boat. When I got there, she was in the water clinging to the rock. I told her "This is your lucky day, because if you weren't on top of my student's boat, you'd be on your own." I pulled her PFD from her boat, handed it to her, then unpinned her boat and dropped it in the water so she could grab it. She put the PFD on. Me, I always wear my PFD. It's not that damn uncomfortable, even in our 95 degree Georgia summers. If I put it on before I head to the water, it's one less thing to think about, and I never end up wishing I had it. I've tried doing deep water re-entries with and without PFD. With is easier. Steve On 1/5/2010 4:47 PM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > Those guys were idiots Tord, no, Idiots with a capitol I. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA http://www.savvypaddler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote:- >we've all heard of new paddlers under the illusion that a paddlefloat >adds a high level of security to their outing - which it doesn't, really. >............................... >And I will say that offshore, in cold/high wind, "big" water up to your >neck...well, give me my PFD or give me death. G'Day Doug' Your comments in general and on paddlefloats rang a bell. I've carried one for years but haven't closely questioned its utility. The safety gear I've used in a real rather than practise situation comes down to: PFD, whistle, paddle-tether, quickly absorbed food, water, VHF radio, lights, sail (as a signalling/visibility device as well as for propulsion) and tow lines. I've never used a PLB or flares but that wouldn't stop me from carrying them out at sea. But is it useful to carry a paddlefloat, 'offshore, in cold/high wind, "big" water up to your neck...?' Freya used combinations of paddlefloats and sponsons to help her rest while afloat in big water, her descriptions of using them along the Zuytdorp cliffs was challenging and I suspect the skill is uniquely hers. I've used a paddlefloat to help a kayaker with back problems; also to try and develop an offside roll; and I've learnt how to use it for assisting a re-entry and roll or for getting in over the top of the deck. However, the deck rescue looks impractical for big water and I find an unassisted re-entry and roll much easier. I had assumed that a paddlefloat assisted re-entry and roll would be helpful in big water, if one was so tired that a regular re-entry and roll was not working. Your comments reminded me that this is a very big assumption and needs to be tested. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Besides a pillow the best use I can think of is as an outrigger for an injured paddler under tow. I don't think I would use it for re-enter and roll. If conditions are very rough I don't want a paddle float on my paddle when trying to get underway in rough water -- I want to be able to immediately paddle. I don't think rolling without one takes any more energy than with one (assuming one has a solid roll) especially when you factor having to inflate it, secure it to the paddle then remove later. I've re-entered and rolled after getting knocked silly by an extra big wave when playing in surf and that went much easier than any other attempted self-rescue in surf. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter, Are you still allowed offshore in a kayak down there anymore? :-) As for the paddlefloat viability in lumpy open water with the force that generated the seas perhaps still blowing, I find the difficulty with a solo re-entry in a decked sea kayak pretty much exponential with increasing levels of exertion, a succession of failed initial attempts and certainly the coldness of the water. While I don't think I'd ever deploy the paddlefloat these days unless I was experiencing an inexplicable number of failures or if I was hurt enough that I felt it necessary - or had other equipment failures, I do know that there are times at sea when for some reason, an experienced paddler just can't perform tasks that have been repeatedly practiced with a good degree of mastery -- if not in rough water, then in moderate conditions at lest. It isn't something you can really explain to anyone until it has happened directly. It is a feeling of helplessness, frustration, growing anxiety, as one's mind fails to comprehend why a particular technique isn't working. I have experienced this a few times in actual crisis, and it happens to be one of the reasons I carry backups (like the SeaSeat). While this statement might get lost in the verbose bandwidth of internet communication (not to mentioned laughed at by those adverse to gear), do remember what I've said Peter. While no one gets out alive (of this life), getting out of a jam at sea should be doable but may depend on having a bigger toolbox of skills and backups - once your skills at avoidance have failed. So, I carry the Paddlefoat but find a quick, well timed device-unassisted re-enter and roll to be normally sufficient, even in big seas. Where one might want to work on an effective lumpy-water re-enter is with timing the inversion and roll up with the breaking wave patterns. Done correctly, it should be a snap. Having said that, if I was far offshore I'd probably have to decide how far I had to paddle to get to safety. I'd look at the volume of water in my cockpit and what pumping arrangements I had. I say this because while the paddlefloat does add an almost guaranteed success to the re-enter and roll if necessary but not worth the deployment for most advanced paddlers, it still might be useful in the aftermath of righting the kayak after the re-enter as then one has to deal with skirt reattachment and pumping, etc. The paddlefloat makes for a nice impromptu outrigger. More typically, I'll just head her in and forgo some of the aftermath complications. Too far offshore, I might need the paddlefloat, but one that is easy to deploy and take-down. You do need to have paddled in some really stormy stuff with a swamped kayak to have developed enough skill to maneuver and stay upright if forgoing pumping/skirt re-attachment. I used to practice this every storm season in a semi-controlled environment. I've had arguments with safety writers about paddlers in extremis trying their simpler strategies first, only to fail and then have to deploy a more complex but better guaranteed rescue method. Why not go for the one that works for sure first? Well, I think if the simpler method is a familiar one with a good degree of familiarity and previous success, then go for that first. Besides, more complicated is just that - more complicated. Rescue stirrups tangling in gear, sponson straps slipping off, etc. I know I try to make the boat and paddle and my body/mind do every task I can throw at it without assistance or encumbrance, even to the exclusion of tethers, paddlefloats, pumps, sprayskirts, etc. Then, and only then I add levels of gear and backups with mastery at each level before adding more. I don't always think you guys on Paddlewise get that. But it is crucial in a sport moderately risky where further risk is actually pursued and has always been difficult for me to put into an appreciated perspective. Doug Lloyd Doug wrote:- >we've all heard of new paddlers under the illusion that a paddlefloat >adds a high level of security to their outing - which it doesn't, really. >............................... >And I will say that offshore, in cold/high wind, "big" water up to your >neck...well, give me my PFD or give me death. G'Day Doug' Your comments in general and on paddlefloats rang a bell. I've carried one for years but haven't closely questioned its utility. The safety gear I've used in a real rather than practise situation comes down to: PFD, whistle, paddle-tether, quickly absorbed food, water, VHF radio, lights, sail (as a signalling/visibility device as well as for propulsion) and tow lines. I've never used a PLB or flares but that wouldn't stop me from carrying them out at sea. But is it useful to carry a paddlefloat, 'offshore, in cold/high wind, "big" water up to your neck...?' Freya used combinations of paddlefloats and sponsons to help her rest while afloat in big water, her descriptions of using them along the Zuytdorp cliffs was challenging and I suspect the skill is uniquely hers. I've used a paddlefloat to help a kayaker with back problems; also to try and develop an offside roll; and I've learnt how to use it for assisting a re-entry and roll or for getting in over the top of the deck. However, the deck rescue looks impractical for big water and I find an unassisted re-entry and roll much easier. I had assumed that a paddlefloat assisted re-entry and roll would be helpful in big water, if one was so tired that a regular re-entry and roll was not working. Your comments reminded me that this is a very big assumption and needs to be tested. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I've never used a PLB or flares but that wouldn't > stop me from carrying them out at sea. But is it useful to carry a > paddlefloat, 'offshore, in cold/high wind, "big" water up to your neck...?' As long as I am temporarily back on the grid I will add my two cents on this topic. For years I would go out with a group every winter to practice various rescue scenarios in the rougher, colder (Southern California) water. We would practice everything we could think of, doubles, singles, paddle floats, loops, panicked paddlers, all in, you name it, we did it. One year we practiced the paddlefloat rescue in probably six foot seas. While practicing our rescues we were visited by the Coast Guard boat responding to a call of some kayakers in trouble. After that we made a point of notifying the CG when we did our winter rescue practices. But I digress. We found that with a little practice the paddlefloat rescue could be accomplished in significant seas. The keyword here is "practice." I once had the opportunity to take a class of beginner paddlers out into some pretty confused seas to practice the paddlefloat rescue. I believe I reported on that day here when it occurred. My classes were my laboratory for testing kayak techniques. I found that with some practice, and instruction, most (not all) of the people in the class were able to accomplish the rescue with some degree of competency. These were very inexperienced paddlers who managed to do amazingly well with a new technique in fairly difficult conditions. Once again, the keyword here is "practice." Years ago I had a fellow in my class who told me a story of the time he needed to resort to his paddlefloat for a rescue. It seems that he had practiced the rescue some when he first purchased his paddlefloat and then forgot about it for a year or so. When he capsized in some confused seas at the mouth of the harbor he did a wet exit and then reached for his paddlefloat. Not having practiced the rescue in quite a while the paddler found the valve of the float to be frozen shut with salt and corrosion. He was eventually rescued by the Coast Guard. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: > Are you still allowed offshore in a kayak down there anymore? :-) And > So, I carry the paddlefloat but find a quick, well timed device-unassisted > re-enter and roll to be normally sufficient, even in big seas. Where one > might want to work on an effective lumpy-water re-enter is with timing the > inversion and roll up with the breaking wave patterns. Scott wrote: > We found that with a little practice the paddlefloat rescue could be accomplished > in significant seas. The keyword here is "practice. G'Day Doug and Scott, You might remember my concern about EPIRBS and the risk of disgracefully flouting the reg's by using a PLB instead. The local and Federal authorities both explained that the EPIRB was de rigeur. I was about to embark on a crusade when a good lawyer friend waded through the pages of turgid prose and found a small clause that exempts kayakers in NSW from any of these requirements. But the authorities don't know about this! So I can't follow in the footsteps of Ned Kelly or Wild Bill Hickok and I remain a quiet, sober, law abiding citizen who can paddle out to sea with a light heart and a clear conscience - and I was looking forward to being a renegade outlaw! Thanks to you both for the advice on paddlefloats. The message is clear and I need to get out there and test my paddlefloat technique in bigger water, just as I would for a standard re-entry and roll, preferably with someone competent standing by! Doug's post suggested to me that the technique in that kind of water might be similar to re-entry in the surf where, because I only have an onside roll, its necessary to wait for the breaking wave to pass before rolling up. Doug' thank you for giving an idea of the mindset needed and the circumstances that can create the need. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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