Good post Jack... A couple of thoughts in my mind stimulated by this and preceeding posts, and some personal experiences.... Over the years I have had occasion to pull people who likely would have drowned out of the water three times... only once while paddling. We always help fellow paddlers.... it is in our nature to be there.... and there is a certain kindred spirit toward others who share our joy of kayaks.... in my experience. Wearing a pfd... Any one of us could under unexpected conditions wish we had one one.... although we are comfortable in the water... it is a hostile environment. A pdf not only helps prevent drowning, it also helps prevent hypothermia. It also makes it easier for us to help someone else in distress by the extra floation it may provide us if we need to get in the water to assist someone. It gives us throwable flotation in an emergency. It provides some level of protection from trauma.. such as another boats bow plowing into your side. It provides redundancy of safety measures in that hostile environment... and safety is largely not a one tiered system but system of reduncies/fail safes when the first tier fails. All systems fail sooner or later, hence redundancy is smart. Good skills are important... but not fool proof in unexpected situations/conditions, since sooner or later something unexpected happens. This is not combat... it is recreation... therefore the level of risk by sensible people should be minimal. Accident records most often show that paddling in conditions beyond your skills, paddling without proper safety equipment are often the cause of preventable loss of life or near misses. Seems simple ... have fun, minimize unnecessary risk, and help others out when they need it...(doing so also helps your own skills imho. :) Mike O. > From: "Martin, Jack" <martin.jack_at_solute.us> > There was a time when I would have risen to debate much earlier in this > thread. But I do now rise -- or at least react -- to Darryl's comments > because I found myself bristling a little when I read the statement above. > At first, anyway. In the early days of PaddleWise, I'd have condemned > this attitude of justifiable neglect for another paddler. But I take > Darryl's point: maybe we're not our brother's PFD-keeper. Is there > something in life that *requires* us to take disproportionate personal > risk to compensate for another's ambivalence or indifference to his or her > own risks? > > For me, thirty years in the U.S. Navy -- quite a few of them as a Navy > CSAR helicopter pilot, flying into bad-guy territory to bail out the > military's versions of kayak-idiots who wouldn't carry a full bag of > survival equipment on their PFDs -- developed an uncomfortable but firm > personal belief that we still *do* have to take care of the idiots of the > world. That we really *are* our brothers' and sisters' PFD-keepers. > Okay -- maybe there's a difference between being a search and rescue > professional and just being a drive-by paddler witnessing a > fellow-kayaker's distress. But it doesn't work that way for me. > > I kinda wonder if Darryl -- or any PaddleWiser -- wouldn't unhappily do > much more than "the bare minimum" for a foundering kayak-idiot -- with or > without a PFD or the motivation or intent to wear one. Faced with that > disaster-in-the-making, my guess is that he -- and all of us -- would > do -- if begrudgingly -- everything possible to help our less-equipped or > less-experienced kayak-idiot to get the dry side up and the wet side down. > Yes, possibly even taking a disproportionate personal risk in the process. > Unless someone can cite an experience of actually paddling away from > another kayaker's train-wreck on principle, I'm going to continue to > believe that any of us would go well beyond "the bare minimum" if we were > actually placed in that situation, and would pull out the kayak-idiots of > the world even as they might not deserve in a legitimate Darwinian > scenario. 'Cause that's what we *do*. > > Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'd like to add one more element to the PFD equation that has been on my own mind for a few years. When we sold our farm a few years back the buyers demanded that all the old equipment be removed. Now, some of this stuff had been around for 30 years (before we owned the farm) and quite a bit of it was big. No matter, I had to take a tractor and drag it to the shop and then cut it up. In the process I managed to hurry-along some arthritis in my hands. I already had it in my feet and hips but that didn't bother me kayaking. But arthritis in my hands does affect my paddling. Arthritis is a strange thing. My grip has always been strong and it still is unless I'm having pain in my hands. At that point it no longer matters that I have a strong grip. So I take meds to keep the pain down (thank God they took that stuff that causes heart attacks in otherwise healthy arthritis sufferers off the market) and they mostly work. But recent experience has taught me that I can do something with my hands that will suddenly cause excruciating pain (especially the thumb joints) even on a day that is pain free. I know that this is going to impact almost every aspect of my self-rescue skills. The average type III PFD offers something like 18lbs of buoyancy and I got to thinking that maybe a little more wouldn't hurt if I got caught in some big water and a couple missed rescue attempts. So I bought a Kokatat inflatable combination PFD (I think they call it a SeaO2). This PFD has only about 11 or 12 lbs of flotation but when you pull the rip cord you get about 23 lbs. I figured 23lbs couldn't hurt. One plus was that the PFD was actually less bulky when not inflated. Of course, when it's inflated (and you could do that with a mouthpiece, too) it was REALLY bulky. But it sure did hold me up high in the water. Unfortunately that PFD died in the shop fire last February and I've been looking for another one on sale ever since. (If you have one you don't want, email me!) I guess the thrust of this posting is that stuff changes as we grow older. I'll be 67 years old for next paddling season and, while I draw the line at growing up, I have been forced to deal with some circumstances that make me stand back and think. Like another Paddlewiser, I try not to be stupid. This doesn't stop me from being stupid, of course, but at least I'm trying. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As Doug says, we have all been through this before. But I would like to clarify a few things - one more time - and then I'm done with this. I have NEVER tried to talk anybody out of wearing a pfd. I really don't care what your reasons are for wearing one. If you want to wear it, then wear it! I think most sea kayakers should wear one most of the time, and I wear mine too, when it suits me - but I firmly believe that I have the right to choose when that is. I do not believe that any of you should have the right to tell me that I MUST wear my pfd. I also do not believe that you should be able to tell me that I am not invited to paddle with you unless I wear my pfd. For what it's worth, if you are that narrow minded then I really don't want to be on the water with you in the first place, so I guess it all works out in the end. Doug made some comment about winning the argument - is that what this is about - really? OK then, I concede! You win! You can print that, mount it on a plaque and hang it on your wall if that's what makes you happy. I believe several people on this list have subtly implied that I am an idiot waiting to die. For the record, I have been sea kayaking for over thirty years. I have been teaching kayaking, I guess you could say professionally since I am paid for it, for more then twenty years. I have done trips on the open ocean in Canada, Baja California, and all parts in between. I love the surf, and enjoy playing in rock gardens, and am not afraid of a challenge. And while I have done countless self rescues, in all my years on the water I have NEVER needed the assistance of another person - in any way shape or form. How many of you can say that? You may argue that I must be too conservative of a paddler, although the people I do paddle with might dispute that. I like to think that I am an intelligent paddler who has the skills and knowledge of the ocean to back it up. I do not consider the need to be rescued on the water to be some kind of badge of honor - in my book, those are the real idiots here. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott, The debate over wearing a PFD or not isn't a question of yes or no. The majority of us want the freedom and right to be able to wear one at the moment or not (where I live, one has to have an approved lifejacket at arms length at the very least). The debate should be more about the bigger question of active paddlers in a dynamic environment wearing a PFD whenever possible as a best practice decision. I've made my mind up about that and so have many others, not to mention the authorities. But part of an informed decision is knowing that in and of itself the act of wearing a PFD doesn't necessarily make you a safer paddler, to which you have championed the anti-dogma stance for some time, and that I do applaud. Scott said: As Doug says, we have all been through this before. But I would like to clarify a few things - one more time - and then I'm done with this. I have NEVER tried to talk anybody out of wearing a pfd. I really don't care what your reasons are for wearing one. If you want to wear it, then wear it! I think most sea kayakers should wear one most of the time, and I wear mine too, when it suits me - but I firmly believe that I have the right to choose when that is. I do not believe that any of you should have the right to tell me that I MUST wear my pfd. I also do not believe that you should be able to tell me that I am not invited to paddle with you unless I wear my pfd. For what it's worth, if you are that narrow minded then I really don't want to be on the water with you in the first place, so I guess it all works out in the end. Doug made some comment about winning the argument - is that what this is about - really? OK then, I concede! You win! You can print that, mount it on a plaque and hang it on your wall if that's what makes you happy. I believe several people on this list have subtly implied that I am an idiot waiting to die. For the record, I have been sea kayaking for over thirty years. I have been teaching kayaking, I guess you could say professionally since I am paid for it, for more then twenty years. I have done trips on the open ocean in Canada, Baja California, and all parts in between. I love the surf, and enjoy playing in rock gardens, and am not afraid of a challenge. And while I have done countless self rescues, in all my years on the water I have NEVER needed the assistance of another person - in any way shape or form. How many of you can say that? You may argue that I must be too conservative of a paddler, although the people I do paddle with might dispute that. I like to think that I am an intelligent paddler who has the skills and knowledge of the ocean to back it up. I do not consider the need to be rescued on the water to be some kind of badge of honor - in my book, those are the real idiots here. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You are far from an idiot. I once took a tropical trip around a fairly burley headland with no PFD. It was a hundred F air temps and rolling made you warmer. I wanted airflow on my body. A PFD was not in the cards those ten days. I wear one all the time around here, for various reasons, body armor, gear caddy, floatation, etc. I'm firmly in the PFD camp, except when it makes sense when you would be better off without one on an hourly basis. Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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