Ok... they want us to call them "lifejackets" again. After finally getting us to use PFD it changes. (sigh) No one can read all the kayak blogs out there but anyone can read www.paddlingplanet.com which is a clever compendium of blogs and resources about paddling. Mine is there along with probably 60 or 70 others (they're listed in a sidebar). Paddling Planet uses a web search bot to check the blogs for recent entries and then scoops them up and loads them into the main page of www.paddlingplanet.com. This is not technically very difficult to do but it's done very well. It greatly increases viewership of your blog, too. I wish I understood the Scandinavian languages better as there are some fantastic trips pictured on their blogs. The translators give me an idea of what they're talking about but it can get confusing. The photos, of course, are universal. I also like the "food for thought" tidbits that crop up from time to time on the various blogs. CASKA, in Chicago, has one about PFD use that is interesting. We all read about using our PFDs at all times but many of us - especially the veteran paddlers - don't wear them all the time. Some people don't even carry one. The dialog on CASKA was interesting enough for me to wonder what Paddlewisers think. (I know what Jim Tibensky thinks already - grin.) I don't wear a PFD at all times but I always wear a PFD in salt water or white water. Where I don't wear one is on warm, flat water and especially on hot days paddling on the lake from my dock at home. I carry one, however. My thoughts are that when the water is 80F I don't have to worry about hypothermia and the lake isn't *that* big that I can't simply tow the boat to a nearby shore. But Puget Sound is cold even in the summer and the shoreline can be a mile away (not often more) and any flotation is good. But there are no hard and fast rules for me on this. During the busy weekends when there might be some muscle-boats out here capable of going 80mph (plus!) I wear my PFD. And I stick close to shore and make any crossings quick and direct. Those guys don't always drive with a sober head. But new paddlers, who haven't yet learned how to read the weather or the conditions, should probably adhere to the "all the time" rule. I remember an encounter with a group of 8 kayaks full of kids and led by two other kids on their way to Sucia Island off the NW corner of Orcas. No immersion protection and no one - not even the leaders wore their PFDs. We probably should have said something but it wouldn't have done any good. The weather was settled and the currents were slight. But I'm willing to bet they had no rescue abilities either. We all had PFDs on and drytops so at least we were a good example. Or looked like fuddy-duddies to them. What do you all think about this issue? Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> We all read about using our PFDs at all times but many of us - > especially the veteran paddlers - don't wear them all the time. Some people > don't even carry one. The dialog on CASKA was interesting enough for me to > wonder what Paddlewisers think. > I always carry a pfd in my boat because it's the law. I will wear my pfd when I am with a group playing in the rocks, because my pfd is an integral part of my tow system which I want to be able to instantly deploy in the event someone gets into trouble. Other then that, I pretty much never wear one. That a pfd should be worn "at all times" while sea kayaing is, I believe, an old wives tale that the sport will eventually outgrow. Either that or the law makers will decide to step in and make our sport "safer" by making it law that the pfd should be worn at all times. I don't believe for minute that this will really make the sport any safer, and in fact it just might make it a somewhat less safe, but at least it will end the debate. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Most of my "stuff" is on or in my PFD - VHF radio, camera, tow system, etc. Yeah, I'll take it off here and there, but for the most part it stays on. Even on a benign trip, I'll find something interesting and perhaps adventurous to venture into and that old PFD might just be nice to have on with the gear one day, ya never know. Oh yeah, I hate the thing too, but usually I'm in it. When it's on, I'm on, if ya know what I mean. Doug Lloyd >Ok... they want us to call them "lifejackets" again. After finally getting us to use PFD it changes. (sigh) snip What do you all think about this issue?< Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm with Doug on this issue: I carry a lot of stuff on my PFD I wouldn't want to be without -- including my hydration pack in the back pocket! Another reason I always wear one is that the law requires me to have one on my kayak, and I find it easier to wear it than to find a place to stow it where it's out of the way and I can reach it easily. If I get too warm, I unzip it most of the way rather than take it off completely. I once took mine off in a pool to dive for a sunken dive mask. When I made my paddlefloat reentry afterward, I found it harder to get my chest up on the afterdeck without the extra buoyancy of the PFD. Also, after many years of always wearing my PFD while kayaking, it just doesn't feel right not to have it on, sort of like driving without a seat belt. Chuck Holst -16 degrees F at our house today, but so sunny and windless that it felt comfortable to be outside __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4738 (20100102) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Craig, I'm an ALWAYS guy, and most of the experienced paddlers here are as well. We normally paddle in warm water - even in the 90's, which is quite strange, paddling in the Gulf of Mexico and the water actually feeling hot. No question where the hurricanes come from. There's a few who can't be bothered, but we work on them by making wearing them the accepted thing to do. All the "cool" paddlers wear them all the time. Hopefully that helps. When we have rescue practice, we'll sometimes ask one of the non-wearers to please stow their life jacket as the normally do and could they please wet exit and put it on for us? I have not seen one succeed in a pool, never mind in conditions. I always wear my skirt too, but my wife isn't so regular. Once we were on a coastal clean-up and she left with the skirt in the cockpit "so I can put it on if the wind picks up" or something. Well the wind came up and we had to paddle into a canal a fair ways before the water was calm enough to get the job done. And every time one of the locals takes an unexpected swim we publicize it within the club, life jacket or not. The most common thing is to drift over a manatee who isn't aware of your presence and when they do notice the large thing above them they take off like a shot. The taking off results in an eruption of water that will lift a paddler six to eighteen inches, and makes stability iffy. One guy in a plastic boat had the boat bend at the cockpit and got bruises where the deck pinched his legs against the bottom off the hull. Think bending a straw and the straw collapses. Then there are other things that can happen like heart attacks, strokes and seizures that can't be predicted. Nice to have some flotation if that happens. You can be sure the heart attack will happen when you are fighting the wind and seas trying to make safe harbor in a thunderstorm with 70 mph gusts. Or boat wakes can be a surprise sometimes, or a jumping mullet smacks you in the face (don't laugh, I've seen it happen!) Why not wear it? Comfort? If you want to be comfortable, stay in your Lay-Z-Boy. Too hot? It actually keeps the sun off of you and coupled with a spray skirt I feel it keeps me from overheating here in the summer. Not a problem in the Pacific NW I'm sure, but if you are warm up there, I'm sure there's a lot of nice cool water around to cool off in with a roll or just hang on someone's bow. That doesn't work too well here in August when the gulf is in the 90's. That's the only time I came close to overheating. And had I fainted without the pfd... The most effective argument seems to be "I understand that it is your right to wear a PFD or not, but when we paddle together we are responsible for each other's life. By not wearing one you make that more difficult for me and I am not comfortable unless you are wearing your PFD." If you are going out solo, try asking your wife if you should wear it or not. That's my take on it. but I'm not going to say there's never an exception. I heard someone here argue that in a certain situation, I don't recall if it was surfing or rock gardening, they felt the PFD was a liability, or it increased their risk of a poor outcome should something happen. If they convince me that we are following the course of less risk, then fine, let's go! Best, Carey On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 2:50 PM, Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > Ok... they want us to call them "lifejackets" again. After finally getting > us to use PFD it changes. (sigh) > > No one can read all the kayak blogs out there but anyone can read > www.paddlingplanet.com which is a clever compendium of blogs and resources > about paddling. Mine is there along with probably 60 or 70 others (they're > listed in a sidebar). Paddling Planet uses a web search bot to check the > blogs for recent entries and then scoops them up and loads them into the > main page of www.paddlingplanet.com. This is not technically very > difficult to do but it's done very well. -- http://parkswhistles.com/ http://www.facebook.com/carey.parks http://twitter.com/LuthierCarey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote about using our PFDs at all times I agree with his perspective and the rest of my opinion is on the CASKA blog he mentions. But the bottom line(s) can be repeated so the reader doesn't have to wade through the whole blog. 1. Lifejackets float you face down if you're not conscious. So how is that a safety thing for those of us who usually paddle alone? 2. When I swim for fun, body surfing and playing in whitewater as a swimmer, I never use a lifejacket. No one at the beach ever wears a lifejacket. If paddling conditions are benign, what does the lifejacket do for me? 3. I have never been saved by my lifejacket. I don't know how many days I've paddled a kayak in my life, but it is well over 6000, many of those in serious whitewater. 4. I would never, ever, paddle without a sprayskirt. That is my best piece of safety equipment. On days where I have forgot to throw mine in the car, I find I can't get out of my habit of edging all my turns and really regretting not having the skirt. 5. I know this is a bit heretical - I think the way to be safe is practice your paddling skills like crazy. And wear your lifejacket when your skills might not be up to the task. (Or when other paddlers are looking, so you don't have to spend too much time explaining yourself.) But the lifejacket doesn't make you a better paddler. jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim Tibensky wrote: "1. Lifejackets float you face down if you're not conscious. So how is that a safety thing for those of us who usually paddle alone?" ------------------- For flat water paddling, I usually use a belt pouch inflatable. Prior to inflation, it is barely noticeable, does not interfere with swimming, and does not overheat me. Once inflated and entered, it floats me face up, which is of prime importance for me given that I usually paddle in very cold water where I can not expect to maintain muscle control for a long period. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote; > Beware, this is a bit of a rant. > > snip > > So, when someone says, "I want you to wear a PFD because I'm > uncomfortable if you don't" I want to gag. Tell it like it is: I couldn't agree more :-) So .................... Carey Parks asks; > Why not wear it? Comfort? If you want to be comfortable, stay in your > Lay-Z-Boy. So I presume you always wear a helmet while out paddling? What? Why not? We're all about safety here, right? He continues; > If they convince me that we are following the course of less risk, then fine, let's > go! OK, Doug Lloyd writes; > When it's on, I'm on, if ya know what I mean. The implication I get from this statement is that when Doug is wearing his pfd he is prepared to take greater risks. Is that right, Doug? Bradford R. Crain wrote; > I try to wear my PFD at all times because it makes body recovery > easier, > which might be appreciated by the members of SAR and some of the > friends and relatives. Since this is of such a concern to you I can therefore assume that your boat and all of your paddling apparel is colored high visibility orange? Jim writes; > I know this is a bit heretical - I think the way to be safe is > practice your paddling skills like crazy. "All great truths begin as heresy," - Huxley Jim continues: > And wear your lifejacket when > your skills might not be up to the task. And therein lies the rub. Tell it like it is - mindlessly chanting the popular dogma seems to be easier then admitting that one simply does not posses the skills. Scott So. Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott Hilliard wrote: Doug Lloyd writes: > > When it's on, I'm on, if ya know what I mean. > The implication I get from this statement is that when Doug is wearing > his pfd he is prepared to take greater risks. Is that right, Doug? Nah. It just means he has his mojo working. Doug is battle ready when he is clad in polyurethane shielding. [grin] Bradford R. Crain wrote: > > I try to wear my PFD at all times because it makes body recovery > > easier, which might be appreciated by the members of SAR and some of the > > friends and relatives. > Since this is of such a concern to you I can therefore assume that your > boat and all of your paddling apparel is colored high visibility orange? Oh, boy! Bradford only contributes with tongue in cheek. I wonder how he is able to chew his food ... tonguey being there always. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave/Scott: Fellows, We've been down this road before; gear, more gear, and "more better" gear doesn't make you a safer paddler. Taking/donning that gear doesn't invoke a paddler to take more risk if that paddler has full comprehension of the chosen ocean-zone dynamics. An advanced/experienced paddler will make a strategic determination of the level of risk about to be undertaken, then typically, the option to take your best gear is a no brainer. For me, having all my gear with me allows me to take on more challenging conditions without worrying I should have brought more gear or had it handy should conditions deteriorate unexpectedly - which it can do (even in the warm Gulf waters as we have witnessed in a safety article in SK awhile back). When I first started paddling I was doing winter storms, open coast, solo, with far less gear than now - even horribly inferior British gear and dismally performing equipment. That did not inhibit me from taking on greater risk and certainly did not make me more or less safe. Reasonable hypothermia protection, a good boat, strong paddle and well fitting spray skirt, plus an understanding of my skill limits and/or abilities in extremis were the main criterion for a successful sortie in such inhospitable conditions. Yes, a novice can certainly be under the impression that more and better gear can make him or her safer - we've all heard of new paddlers under the illusion that a paddlefloat adds a high level of security to their outing - which it doesn't, really. I admit that solo rock garden work in big swell in a remote location causes considerable consternation for myself - yeah, I'd be better to opt not to go in or only do so with a well-trained team with quick deployable tow systems, but that is too much of a logistical issue for me and limits my freedom on an open water tour. I worry in that the ideal - no PFD combined with minimal buoyancy hypothermyia protection garments - would be way safer if I need to dive under waves if I wet-exited and need to swim out. Though I did once wash out past a headland (boat in tow, off bow-painter line) and got into a strong current that was boisterous and made breathing-re-entry difficult. I used to wear a Mustang harness PFD with the C02 release for this purpose, but have settled down enough that a regular River shorty buoyancy aid is reasonably acceptable and I can carry more gear in a more efficient manner with a good conforms-to-the-norm PFD. Beside, I've taken to the notion of just staying in my kayak now - so much easier than coming out of your boat. :-) Without meaning to discredit anyone or disapprove of the various opinions expressed about the wearing PFD question, I do find the bandwidth gets a little adolescent at times if we are not careful, which indicates more to me about the paddler's somewhat limited breadth of experience and openness to risk-taking as a way of life, than one might attribute. And I will say that offshore, in cold/high wind, "big" water up to your neck...well, give me my PFD or give me death. Yes, give me liberty (to chose to wear it) or give me death, but I choose life. I choose my life jacket. My Life jacket chooses me...or at least calls out my name from the back deck..."Douggie, oh DOUGGIE, put me on old boy...!" Doug Lloyd Scott Hilliard wrote: Doug Lloyd writes: > > When it's on, I'm on, if ya know what I mean. > The implication I get from this statement is that when Doug is wearing > his pfd he is prepared to take greater risks. Is that right, Doug? Nah. It just means he has his mojo working. Doug is battle ready when he is clad in polyurethane shielding. [grin] Bradford R. Crain wrote: > > I try to wear my PFD at all times because it makes body recovery > > easier, which might be appreciated by the members of SAR and some of the > > friends and relatives. > Since this is of such a concern to you I can therefore assume that your > boat and all of your paddling apparel is colored high visibility orange? Oh, boy! Bradford only contributes with tongue in cheek. I wonder how he is able to chew his food ... tonguey being there always. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PFD ='s Body Armor. (In addition to it's purpose built purposes, of which I've called upon those properties many times.) Cheers, Rob G -----Original Message----- From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> To: 'Dave Kruger' <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>; 'Paddlewise' <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Mon, Jan 4, 2010 7:12 pm Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] PFDs Dave/Scott: Fellows, We've been down this road before; gear, more gear, and "more better" gear doesn't make you a safer paddler. Taking/donning that gear doesn't invoke a paddler to take more risk if that paddler has full comprehension of the chosen ocean-zone dynamics. An advanced/experienced paddler will make a strategic determination of the level of risk about to be undertaken, then typically, the option to take your best gear is a no brainer. For me, having all my gear with me allows me to take on more challenging conditions without worrying I should have brought more gear or had it handy should conditions deteriorate unexpectedly - which it can do (even in the warm Gulf waters as we have witnessed in a safety article in SK awhile back). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I bought my paddling jacket, there was a choice of blue or orange, the jackets being identical otherwise. I wanted the blue one, but the salesperson said if I took the orange one, they would give me a $50 discount. Without using a calculator, I took the orange one. Years later, I finally figured out their strategy...they wanted to keep me alive so that I would come back and buy some more stuff. Brad Quoting Scott Hilliard <kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net>: > Dave Kruger wrote; > >> Beware, this is a bit of a rant. >> >> snip >> >> So, when someone says, "I want you to wear a PFD because I'm >> uncomfortable if you don't" I want to gag. Tell it like it is: > > I couldn't agree more :-) So .................... > > Carey Parks asks; > >> Why not wear it? Comfort? If you want to be comfortable, stay in your >> Lay-Z-Boy. > So I presume you always wear a helmet while out paddling? What? Why > not? We're all about safety here, right? > > He continues; >> If they convince me that we are following the course of less risk, >> then fine, let's >> go! > OK, > Doug Lloyd writes; >> When it's on, I'm on, if ya know what I mean. > The implication I get from this statement is that when Doug is > wearing his pfd he is prepared to take greater risks. Is that right, > Doug? > > Bradford R. Crain wrote; > >> I try to wear my PFD at all times because it makes body recovery easier, >> which might be appreciated by the members of SAR and some of the >> friends and relatives. > Since this is of such a concern to you I can therefore assume that > your boat and all of your paddling apparel is colored high > visibility orange? > > Jim writes; > >> I know this is a bit heretical - I think the way to be safe is >> practice your paddling skills like crazy. > "All great truths begin as heresy," - Huxley > > Jim continues: > >> And wear your lifejacket when >> your skills might not be up to the task. > And therein lies the rub. Tell it like it is - mindlessly chanting > the popular dogma seems to be easier then admitting that one simply > does not posses the skills. > > > Scott > So. Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 04/01/2010 7:03 PM, Scott Hilliard wrote: > Dave Kruger wrote; > <snip> > Jim continues: > >> And wear your lifejacket when >> your skills might not be up to the task. > And therein lies the rub. Tell it like it is - mindlessly chanting the > popular dogma seems to be easier then admitting that one simply does not > posses the skills. > > > Scott > So. Cal. I always wear my PFD when I'm out in my kayak because I can't swim worth a damn -- not more than 20' in any direction (except down <grin>) I once tried putting it on in the water on a nice warm day in shallow water -- because I'd read that it was hard to do and wanted to find out for myself. It *is* hard to do. For me. But I really don't care too much, one way or the other, what anyone else does with regard to their PFD or any other safety equipment. But I will say this: if I *know* that you didn't put your PFD on as part of an informed decision, don't count on me to do more than the bare minimum to help you out. Not only am I not going to risk my life, I'm not even going to going to chase after your loose equipment for you. It's sometimes a hard resolution to live up to. But I have waved at some complete idiot who was in the ditch after speeding on icy roads and not even looked at my cell phone to call for help for him. Be an idiot; live with the consequences. Or die from them. I try not to be an idiot. I don't think it's too much to ask that others do the same. I am definitely NOT saying that you're an idiot if you decide not to wear a PFD at all times. That's a long ways from being an idiot. But I still expect you to live by the consequences; don't involve me. We all make mistakes, errors in judgment, etc. I'll do my best for anyone, any time if I think it's the result of an honest mistake. That's a long way from being an idiot -- either that or we're all idiots. And that's my rant for the day. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Darryl Johnson wrote, "But I will say this: if I *know* that you didn't put your PFD on as part of an informed decision, don't count on me to do more than the bare minimum to help you out. Not only am I not going to risk my life, I'm not even going to going to chase after your loose equipment for you." *** There was a time when I would have risen to debate much earlier in this thread. But I do now rise -- or at least react -- to Darryl's comments because I found myself bristling a little when I read the statement above. At first, anyway. In the early days of PaddleWise, I'd have condemned this attitude of justifiable neglect for another paddler. But I take Darryl's point: maybe we're not our brother's PFD-keeper. Is there something in life that *requires* us to take disproportionate personal risk to compensate for another's ambivalence or indifference to his or her own risks? For me, thirty years in the U.S. Navy -- quite a few of them as a Navy CSAR helicopter pilot, flying into bad-guy territory to bail out the military's versions of kayak-idiots who wouldn't carry a full bag of survival equipment on their PFDs -- developed an uncomfortable but firm personal belief that we still *do* have to take care of the idiots of the world. That we really *are* our brothers' and sisters' PFD-keepers. Okay -- maybe there's a difference between being a search and rescue professional and just being a drive-by paddler witnessing a fellow-kayaker's distress. But it doesn't work that way for me. I kinda wonder if Darryl -- or any PaddleWiser -- wouldn't unhappily do much more than "the bare minimum" for a foundering kayak-idiot -- with or without a PFD or the motivation or intent to wear one. Faced with that disaster-in-the-making, my guess is that he -- and all of us -- would do -- if begrudgingly -- everything possible to help our less-equipped or less-experienced kayak-idiot to get the dry side up and the wet side down. Yes, possibly even taking a disproportionate personal risk in the process. Unless someone can cite an experience of actually paddling away from another kayaker's train-wreck on principle, I'm going to continue to believe that any of us would go well beyond "the bare minimum" if we were actually placed in that situation, and would pull out the kayak-idiots of the world even as they might not deserve in a legitimate Darwinian scenario. 'Cause that's what we *do*. Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 8:07 AM, Martin, Jack <martin.jack_at_solute.us> wrote: > > I kinda wonder if Darryl -- or any PaddleWiser -- wouldn't unhappily do > much more than "the bare minimum" for a foundering kayak-idiot -- with or > without a PFD or the motivation or intent to wear one. Faced with that > disaster-in-the-making, my guess is that he -- and all of us -- would do -- > if begrudgingly -- everything possible to help our less-equipped or > less-experienced kayak-idiot to get the dry side up and the wet side down. > I agree with this. I'd grouse about it but I'd turn out and do the best I could. But I can assure you that the story - and all the details - would appear in a national magazine. :D Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't know, I've had good intel and multiple first hand accounts of incidents were the root cause was idiocy and there was an decision not to proceed with the story... DL On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 8:07 AM, Martin, Jack <martin.jack_at_solute.us> wrote: > > I kinda wonder if Darryl -- or any PaddleWiser -- wouldn't unhappily do > much more than "the bare minimum" for a foundering kayak-idiot -- with or > without a PFD or the motivation or intent to wear one. Faced with that > disaster-in-the-making, my guess is that he -- and all of us -- would do -- > if begrudgingly -- everything possible to help our less-equipped or > less-experienced kayak-idiot to get the dry side up and the wet side down. > I agree with this. I'd grouse about it but I'd turn out and do the best I could. But I can assure you that the story - and all the details - would appear in a national magazine. :D Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 05/01/2010 11:07 AM, Martin, Jack wrote: > > Darryl Johnson wrote, "But I will say this: if I *know* that you didn't put your PFD on as part of an informed decision, don't count on me to do more than the bare minimum to help you out. Not only am I not going to risk my life, I'm not even going to going to chase after your loose equipment for you." > > *** > > There was a time when I would have risen to debate much earlier in this thread. But I do now rise -- or at least react -- to Darryl's comments because I found myself bristling a little when I read the statement above. At first, anyway. In the early days of PaddleWise, I'd have condemned this attitude of justifiable neglect for another paddler. But I take Darryl's point: maybe we're not our brother's PFD-keeper. Is there something in life that *requires* us to take disproportionate personal risk to compensate for another's ambivalence or indifference to his or her own risks? > > For me, thirty years in the U.S. Navy -- quite a few of them as a Navy CSAR helicopter pilot, flying into bad-guy territory to bail out the military's versions of kayak-idiots who wouldn't carry a full bag of survival equipment on their PFDs -- developed an uncomfortable but firm personal belief that we still *do* have to take care of the idiots of the world. That we really *are* our brothers' and sisters' PFD-keepers. Okay -- maybe there's a difference between being a search and rescue professional and just being a drive-by paddler witnessing a fellow-kayaker's distress. But it doesn't work that way for me. > > I kinda wonder if Darryl -- or any PaddleWiser -- wouldn't unhappily do much more than "the bare minimum" for a foundering kayak-idiot -- with or without a PFD or the motivation or intent to wear one. Faced with that disaster-in-the-making, my guess is that he -- and all of us -- would do -- if begrudgingly -- everything possible to help our less-equipped or less-experienced kayak-idiot to get the dry side up and the wet side down. Yes, possibly even taking a disproportionate personal risk in the process. Unless someone can cite an experience of actually paddling away from another kayaker's train-wreck on principle, I'm going to continue to believe that any of us would go well beyond "the bare minimum" if we were actually placed in that situation, and would pull out the kayak-idiots of the world even as they might not deserve in a legitimate Darwinian scenario. 'Cause that's what we *do*. > > Joq > I attempted to distinguish between the person who *knowingly* decides not to wear a PFD as opposed to the person who doesn't know any better -- like the people who paddle canoes with kids and dogs wearing jeans and cotton shirts in high winds. I'll do my best for the unknowing. But I stand my ground if you *knowingly* put yourself in harms way. Too many times you read the stories about the person who drowns while trying to save someone who got into trouble. We think kind thoughts about the person who bravely threw him- or herself into the water, but that doesn't help the dead any. My skills are not so good that I'm going to be able to give much assistance in conditions that put a good paddler into the water anyway. I know that; I'm quite happy to inform people of that fact if we go out together in 'iffy' conditions. But the main thing is that I'm just sick and tired of people doing dumbass things and expecting someone to rescue them. Skiing or skidooing in out-of-bounds areas when there is a threat of avalanche, for example. Climbing mountains in the face of threatening weather. It's becoming a drain on western culture -- which is going downhill fast enough -- and I don't want to play any more. I'm extremely glad there are people who volunteer to work in areas like nursing, policing, firefighting, SAR, etc. But their work is hard enough without society encouraging the mentally deficient to "do your thing and we'll take care of you regardless." -- Darryl (I'm going to live in the 18th century when I come back) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Helping the "stupid" survive is part of the "social contract" in this country. It is not just the police, firefighting etc. The entire medical establishment, which consumes a huge percentage of the economy, saves the stupid (temporarily often) from themselves all the time and at HUGE expense. The money spent saving stupid people who go out in the wilderness is change lost in the cushions. Drug addiction, obesity, sex (under some circumstances), driving a car using a cell phone, smoking -- these are all stupid things that people do that risk their lives and health. A most of us have done stupid things and certainly know people that we like who have done stupid things and have children that do stupid things and we don't just walk on by when we see a victim of it, however irritating their behavior. We even bandage up murderers when they cut themselves. It is just part of our definition of "civilized." Remember the shock when anoxic people on Everest do not stop to save the dying. We basically don't "like" that behavior. Of course, they are ALL stupid up there where it is a lot more dangerous than on Puget Sound without a lifejacket. I sometimes do not wear a lifejacket when I kayak. I have never worn a drysuit. I make my own "stupid" decisions because they are mine. For me the basic safety decision revolves about whether I am going out at all that day. On Jan 5, 2010, at 9:50 AM, Darryl Johnson wrote: > Darryl (I'm going to live in the 18th century when I come back) You better hope you end up in the 2% who were comfortably wealthy. Otherwise it could be pretty rough going back then. And I would bring some anesthetic just in case. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Darryl Johnson wrote: > But the main thing is that I'm just sick and tired of people doing > dumbass things and expecting someone to rescue them. Skiing or skidooing > in out-of-bounds areas when there is a threat of avalanche, for example. > Climbing mountains in the face of threatening weather. It's becoming a > drain on western culture -- which is going downhill fast enough -- and I > don't want to play any more. > I'm extremely glad there are people who volunteer to work in areas like > nursing, policing, firefighting, SAR, etc. But their work is hard enough > without society encouraging the mentally deficient to "do your thing and > we'll take care of you regardless." Darryl, I know what you mean by "I'm just sick and tired of ...": I do not have much sympathy for folks who egregiously attempt hard, dangerous stunts without the requisite skills or knowledge, and who go into those stunts thinking, "If I get into a jam, I'll get rescued." But there are some squishy ethical issues here. Stay with me for a while on this: I agree people do _dumb_ things. I also agree some are _unknowing_. I agree I would not risk my life to rescue someone if I was _certain_ I would die if I tried to do so. Some questions to think about: 1. What's a "dumb" thing? My son is such a skilled rock climber that soloing steep rock is as risky for him as walking down a cracked sidewalk is for me. We are equally likely to be injured in our respective "risky" practices. Yet, we readily respond to an injured person who tumbles off a "safe" city sidewalk, falls into a ravine, and requires a high angle team to be pulled out. Another example: a family of four takes a drive on a rainy day across a mountain pass, goes a little too fast around a curve, skids on gravel, and their vehicle punches through a guardrail and rolls down a cliff. Their retrieval demands a high angle team scramble to their rescue, endangering the team members. This is regarded as a good usage of the high angle team. Their drive was "risky." Was it "dumb?" Do we feel someone whose vehicle rolls off a highway because of their incompetence or poor judgment is in the same class as a well-prepared climber who attempts an icy face and gets stuck? Similar degrees of risk to the person, similar degrees of hazard for the rescuers, similar degrees of competence for the person(s) stuck. What's the difference? I think it is this: we ground-pounders are "familiar" with driving, and can see ourselves as a possible victim of what befel the family of four. So, it's Ok to rescue them. But, the climber gets in trouble doing something that is foreign to most of us, and it "looks" dangerous as hell ... so we condemn him/her as an "idiot," and begrudge the use of resources to rescue him/her. 2. How do we determine, in a rescue situation, whether the stranded person was "unknowing?" Sure, if its a kid, we expect kids do foolish things, unknowingly, and we go get 'em! They're kids! Suppose it's a middle-aged woman (or, man) who falls out of her kayak, sans PFD, and appears to be drowning. Well, _she_ can't be "unknowing" can she? She's an adult! No USCG helo for _her_! So, we watch her drown. Oh, later, we find out she was ignorant and did not know anything about PFD's, paddling, etc. 3. Finally, how do we figure out when a rescue is "certain" to kill a rescuer? Sometimes it's easy: kid is stuck in a huge hydraulic below a raging waterfall, circulating in it, and I'm on the bank without a rope or anything to help him from the bank. I'm _not_ going into that to help him. I know I'll end up like him. that's an easy one. But, if Becky falls out of her boat in extremely rough water, wearing her PFD, farmer john, and drytop, god-damn it, I'm going to try to get her back in her boat, even though I know doing so endangers me, even though I know our paddlefloat rescue techniques are not good in very rough water. Why? Because I'm _not_ certain I'll die trying to do so. Peace, Darryl. I think we share a lot of common ground on this. But I think some of that ground is a bit uncertain. Here's what I am concerned about: For the majority of the public, what we do in our tiny little boats looks "dangerous" to them. If it comes to pass that we are viewed as the public now regards well-prepared mountain climbers, it may be that rescues of "taboo" sea kayak paddlers will also be verboten. If they seem dumb, or knowing, or "mentally deficient". I support reasonable attempts to rescue stranded people, with minimal risk to the rescuers ... and I support reasonable means to reduce the cost to the public for rescues, in people and money. If we decide "all mountain climbers stuck on a steep face" are unworthy of rescues, then maybe next will be "all sea kayakers in rough water" and somewhere down the line will be "idiots who slide off slippery roads and crash down a cliff." -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 06/01/2010 9:29 AM, Dave Kruger wrote: > Darryl Johnson wrote: > >> But the main thing is that I'm just sick and tired of people doing >> dumbass things and expecting someone to rescue them. Skiing or >> skidooing in out-of-bounds areas when there is a threat of avalanche, >> for example. Climbing mountains in the face of threatening weather. >> It's becoming a drain on western culture -- which is going downhill >> fast enough -- and I don't want to play any more. > >> I'm extremely glad there are people who volunteer to work in areas >> like nursing, policing, firefighting, SAR, etc. But their work is hard >> enough without society encouraging the mentally deficient to "do your >> thing and we'll take care of you regardless." > > Darryl, I know what you mean by "I'm just sick and tired of ...": I do > not have much sympathy for folks who egregiously attempt hard, dangerous > stunts without the requisite skills or knowledge, and who go into those > stunts thinking, "If I get into a jam, I'll get rescued." But there are > some squishy ethical issues here. Stay with me for a while on this: > > I agree people do _dumb_ things. I also agree some are _unknowing_. I > agree I would not risk my life to rescue someone if I was _certain_ I > would die if I tried to do so. > > Some questions to think about: > > 1. What's a "dumb" thing? My son is such a skilled rock climber that > soloing steep rock is as risky for him as walking down a cracked > sidewalk is for me. We are equally likely to be injured in our > respective "risky" practices. Yet, we readily respond to an injured > person who tumbles off a "safe" city sidewalk, falls into a ravine, and > requires a high angle team to be pulled out. Another example: a family > of four takes a drive on a rainy day across a mountain pass, goes a > little too fast around a curve, skids on gravel, and their vehicle > punches through a guardrail and rolls down a cliff. Their retrieval > demands a high angle team scramble to their rescue, endangering the team > members. This is regarded as a good usage of the high angle team. Their > drive was "risky." Was it "dumb?" Do we feel someone whose vehicle rolls > off a highway because of their incompetence or poor judgment is in the > same class as a well-prepared climber who attempts an icy face and gets > stuck? Similar degrees of risk to the person, similar degrees of hazard > for the rescuers, similar degrees of competence for the person(s) stuck. > What's the difference? I think it is this: we ground-pounders are > "familiar" with driving, and can see ourselves as a possible victim of > what befel the family of four. So, it's Ok to rescue them. But, the > climber gets in trouble doing something that is foreign to most of us, > and it "looks" dangerous as hell ... so we condemn him/her as an > "idiot," and begrudge the use of resources to rescue him/her. > As I wrote somewhere -- I pretty sure -- we all do dumb things from time to time. Or we get caught out by unexpected circumstances. It's the human condition. But I think I attempted to differentiate between the "dumb" and the "idiotic" by my examples of people skiing in out-of-bounds areas, or driving at greatly excessive speeds. I would not judge your son to be "idiotic" for his climbing, just as I would not consider myself "idiotic" for going out in four-foot waves and 15knot winds. I wouldn't let my wife *near* a kayak in those conditions, since at best she is a calm day, lilypad dipper or a paddler. If you can't swim, then wear the PFD. To not do so, or to not have some other means of support, is idiotic in my books. If you can swim and are confident in your abilities to get back in the boat (or to get into a safe situation --whatever that might be) then I'm quite happy to have you go without a PFD. Sure there are a ton of "grey areas". How do I know whether you are being incredibly stupid or whether you have skills I can only dream of? I don't know. And I'm happy to assume that you have the skills. It's the people who are *obviously* unprepared, or doing stupid things. ("I wonder if this downed electrical wire is live? I'll touch it and see." or "I'm a skilled driver; I can safely drive at triple the speed limit on this twisty road.") who irritate the hell out of me. > 2. How do we determine, in a rescue situation, whether the stranded > person was "unknowing?" Sure, if its a kid, we expect kids do foolish > things, unknowingly, and we go get 'em! They're kids! Suppose it's a > middle-aged woman (or, man) who falls out of her kayak, sans PFD, and > appears to be drowning. Well, _she_ can't be "unknowing" can she? She's > an adult! No USCG helo for _her_! So, we watch her drown. Oh, later, we > find out she was ignorant and did not know anything about PFD's, > paddling, etc. > With regard to paddling: if I see someone who obviously doesn't know, I will do me best to help educate them. You see people all the time who do not know what they are doing. Some respond nicely to advice; some tell you to piss off (or worse). Guess who I'll try to help if they get in trouble? If I see someone drowning while I'm on shore, sad to say, but I'm staying on shore. Again, as I said before, I can't swim well myself, so me going in is just going to double the casualties. I will try to attract the attention of others who might be better swimmers. But if you tell me you can't swim and then you jump into the pool... well, you can guess that I'm turning my back on you and going to the local pub for a pint. > 3. Finally, how do we figure out when a rescue is "certain" to kill a > rescuer? Sometimes it's easy: kid is stuck in a huge hydraulic below a > raging waterfall, circulating in it, and I'm on the bank without a rope > or anything to help him from the bank. I'm _not_ going into that to help > him. I know I'll end up like him. that's an easy one. But, if Becky > falls out of her boat in extremely rough water, wearing her PFD, farmer > john, and drytop, god-damn it, I'm going to try to get her back in her > boat, even though I know doing so endangers me, even though I know our > paddlefloat rescue techniques are not good in very rough water. Why? > Because I'm _not_ certain I'll die trying to do so. Yes, but the person you are trying to save isn't doing anything idiotic, is she? And there is the emotional attachment to factor in as well. What about the person who has rented a boat, goes out without any of the suitable gear, in the face of rough water, against all advice on shore, and then falls in. Are you going to risk your life to save them? Me, I'm phoning the Darwin Award people. And even if you were willing to go to their aid, that's a quality of your personality that is laudable. I would NEVER attempt to discourage people from being helpful. If no one had compassion for their fellow humans, or wanted a better society, we'd have no police, firemen, doctors, nurses, etc. And we'd all the the worse for it. I'm just making *my* stand on the "idiots". They seem to be increasing in numbers, especially on the roads, and I'm going to be really annoyed if one of them kills me. I think they all need a good slap upside the head (with a brick, in some cases). > > Peace, Darryl. I think we share a lot of common ground on this. But I > think some of that ground is a bit uncertain. Here's what I am concerned > about: For the majority of the public, what we do in our tiny little > boats looks "dangerous" to them. If it comes to pass that we are viewed > as the public now regards well-prepared mountain climbers, it may be > that rescues of "taboo" sea kayak paddlers will also be verboten. If > they seem dumb, or knowing, or "mentally deficient". I support > reasonable attempts to rescue stranded people, with minimal risk to the > rescuers ... and I support reasonable means to reduce the cost to the > public for rescues, in people and money. If we decide "all mountain > climbers stuck on a steep face" are unworthy of rescues, then maybe next > will be "all sea kayakers in rough water" and somewhere down the line > will be "idiots who slide off slippery roads and crash down a cliff." > Certainly, that seems to be the direction in which politicians are leaning. At least with regard to paddlesports. <Sigh> And I think that about exhausts this issue for me. NO: you're not an idiot for not wearing a PFD if you feel comfortable in the conditions. YES: we all screw up from time. (I do my best to keep the average up.) Sh*t happens. Be prepared. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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