RE: [Paddlewise] Wing paddle and hull speed was (Re: Who Took Shaun White Sea Kayaking?)

Gerald said:

>Seaworthy means more than just not sinking.  For instance, a boat that
requires constant effort on one side in a cross wind is not seaworthy, nor
is
a lee-cocker that cannot be turned up wind.  Nor is one that quickly
broaches
in following conditions.  Nor is one that is so tender it requires constant
vigilance.<

Well yeah, seaworthy means worthy of handling the sea: boats with the
attributes you describe would be poorly designed ones indeed - and that
would translate many ways, such as kayak A is unseaworthy when the skeg
fails (or just horrible to control directionally) and needs a rudder to
cross any great distance in a quartering sea, kayak B can't turn upwind in
anything over 25 knots without super-human effort and is very dangerous in
the minds of many paddlers; and a prudent paddler shouldn't use kayak C on
open water. So, Jerry you have a point in terms of the practical application
of the term seaworthy.

>Seakindly seems to me just an expression of personal preference.  Is
Freya's
Epic more or less seakindly than her Explorer?  Is your Mariner II more or
less seakindly than your Coaster?  Is Doug's Nordkapp more seakindly with
its
rudder than without?<

As has been pointed out by Craig, et al, seakindly is a nautical term well
understood in marine engineering terminology. Yet, preference and design do
come into play. Compare and contrast trans-global racing yachts where there
is a substantial difference in safety and comfort between a vessel that can
surf lower southern seas with aplomb yet suffer dramatically in steep, short
head seas. 

I like the way my old Nordkapp sat in the trough between waves with its fine
entry and exit lines. I'm sorry if the upsets anyone. Probably the Mariner
Express is an example of a sea kayak with the best seakindly attributes
possible, but not as good in rock gardens as the Coaster and not as able to
deliver as the Mariner II for distance travel, yet nevertheless a nice
compromise in length, gear capacity, stability, responsive maneuverability,
and yes, seakindlyness. 

I'm surprised more paddlers didn't pick up on this model, though I don't
have the sales figures. I'm hoping to try one out one day now that I
probably can't fit an Elan. Matt and Cam used to advertize that their kayaks
were only for the few - implying only the discriminating paddler need apply.
As not all their models caught on worldwide, either Matt and Cam struck a
brilliant marketing campaign slogan with those adds or the designs really
didn't deliver and therefore only a few paddlers bought in. There is
certainly enough evidence these days from paddlers thrice or more removed
from directly dealing with the Broze brothers, that we know there is truth
to the claims of Mariner performance. So perhaps there was some other issue
(lack of bulkheads or something, I don't know).   

>If responsiveness means easy turning, then a white water boat is more
responsive than a sea kayak.  I would much prefer the Mariner II to the more
responsive Coaster for travelling A to B.  A surf ski that quickly picks up
the smallest following sea is extremely responsive, yet difficult to turn.<

A whitewater kayak isn't bad with an add-on skeg. Oh the early days...   :-)

I've already defined what responsive and seakindly mean to me. Jerry, you
have been kind enough to take the time to challenge me to defend certain
attributes of the Nordkapp which to my mind, while boring for some folks,
has helped me clarify what I want and don't want in my next kayak.

Life circumstances have slowed down the next boat acquisition, though my
wife's tumor has seemingly shrunk for now, so I'm making hay with some other
things while I can and will eventually figure out my next boat. I'd
certainly like to get my own shop in the backyard so I can do more design
and building, but that isn't in the cards right now. 

As for Freya, she did mention impending heavy seas, building gales, and fast
moving bodies of water when asked about Brit boats versus the plumb-bowed,
fast moving Epic and her paddle-stroke style. Moreover, she felt the
upright, knees-up paddling position with the Epic and wing paddle gives a
superior advantage to move out of those aforementioned sea conditions prior
to impact. Add copy, I don't know. Matt has his add copy too. So did Valley
Canoe, though we do know the Epic is newer on the evolutionary scale. I
certainly can't discount her comments, though this cowboy prefers a low
decked, tight fitting, responsive side-to side, round shallow arched hulled
kayak, and moving away from that "comfort zone" will be an effort for me.

The Caribou discussion showed us just how much personal preference plays
into all this, though it is the dirty little secret amongst SOF paddlers as
to just how much weather helm some of these designs have, but that doesn't
distract from their fan base, the useful attempts to reproduce them with
basic materials, or take design considerations from them for modern glass
kayaks.  

Heck, none of this mattered to any of you in 100 years ago or will it 100
years from now. Enjoying your moments on the sea in whatever craft turns
your crank is ultimately what it is all about: witness Dave and his
countless hours on the Columbia and VI's west coast in a kayak I can't even
remember the model's name - but know how much that kayak has meant to his
enjoyment of life and the limited time we are given.

Doug Lloyd




On Feb 22, 2010, at 12:09 AM, MATT MARINER BROZE wrote:

> Seaworthy means that the boat doesn't sink. Seakindly is a more
descriptive
term. It means the boat handles the conditions found on the sea with gentle
"kindly" motions and a dry ride. A boat that feels good in those conditions
is
one that takes care of you and you don't have to fight with. To me,
responsive
means a kayak that can turn quickly and one that responds to a lean by
turning
readily. I find kayaks that are responsive when leaned, and will also track
reasonably well in difficult conditions, the easiest to handle in rougher
water (helping to make them "seakindly").
>
> Long kayaks with vertical ends, little rocker, little flare, and with flat
sides near the ends are not likely to be very sea kindly. The long kayak
with
little rocker sometimes has the narrow ends picked up by two waves and the
middle is left partially hanging between the waves (think turkey on a spit)
making them very tippy at that point. Vertical ended, long waterline length,
kayaks are not likely to be responsive to turning. Large flat vertical areas
at the bow and stern (a common occurance with a kayak with straight vertical
ends because then much flare is difficult to have at the bow and stern) get
slapped about by crossing waves much more than flared end kayaks that are as
much lifted by those side waves as slapped sideways by them. Other things
being equal, longer kayaks are also harder to turn in strong winds,
especially
when unloaded and in bigger wind waves, because of the long lever arm
offered
to the wind.
>
> Most shorter kayaks (of reasonable hull shape) are easier to paddle than
the
longest sea kayaks up to the 4 to 4.5 knot range. . I seriously doubt Freya
maintained more than 4.5 knots for any length of time with a gear loaded
kayak. She carried all her gear for 80 percent of her epic journey. Gee,
maybe
she chose an Epic kayak for the apt name;-)
>
> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wing paddle and hull speed was (Re: Who Took
Shaun White Sea Kayaking?)
> > From: gfoodma_at_earthlink.net
> > Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:41:37 -0800
> > CC: crjungers_at_gmail.com; marinerkayaks_at_msn.com;
paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net
> > To: douglloyd_at_shaw.ca
> >
> > Doug wrote:
> > > I'm still looking for a fast sea kayak with a good top end, that has a
sea
> > > kindly ride, low windage, responsive with some stability, and allows
for
an
> > > upright stroke when required.
> >
> > I have trouble with the notions of "seakindliness" and "responsive". Do
they actually mean anything that different paddlers can agree on?
> >
> > For fast but non-racing, there are the three ruddered, plumb bow boats
that come to mind; Epic 18, QCC Q700, and Nemo/Marlin. Whether they are
seakindly or responsive I could not say, though I own a Q700. Doug, is your
old Nordkapp seakindly and responsive?
> >
> > Jerry
***************************************************************************
PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed
here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire
responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author.
Submissions:     PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net
Subscriptions:   PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net
Website:         http://www.paddlewise.net/
***************************************************************************