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From: Robert Livingston <bearboat2_at_comcast.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kaboose
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:56:16 -0700
For about 5 years we towed a kayak behind our double kayak on our week  
long trips off the west coast of Vancouver Island. My wife and I had a  
double (Seascape II) and we had two kids in it (3 -> 9)and we towed a  
kayak so that we could bring more camping gear and live in greater  
comfort. It was surprisingly workable. We paddled in a group and  
managed to keep up without too much trouble. We were out there in the  
open ocean and experienced a variety of "conditions". Cape Scott, west  
Nootka, Esperanza

For two years we towed a Keowee which is not to dissimilar to product  
described. With a following heavy sea, we once had slight problems  
with the Keowee surfing into our boat. We lengthened the line and that  
worked OK.

For three years we towed a Mariner (original). Once we learned to load  
it stern heavy that worked fine and gave us a nice single kayak to use  
when we got to our destination. I did not perceive it as being any  
more difficult than the Keowee - it may have been easier when you were  
trying to go "fast". We would typically travel at about 3.4 mph on our  
trips.

On one occasion, it got "loose" and we did not realize it for some  
time. Honestly, when you are paddling a big fat heavy double you do  
not notice it that much. Out of sight, out of mind.

We had a fairly long tow line

Anyway the Mariner is a fairly narrow kayak and some might say "tippy"  
but it was quite stable enough when it was loaded with gear with the  
heavy stuff low. If I were to do it again, I would create a towing  
point low at the bow of the towed kayak so that you were not pulling  
from such a high point as the bow of the Mariner. But we did not do it  
then and stern heavy loading it made it behave very well.

We were not doing surf landings and we were camping at sheltered  
beaches but we had the range of summer kayaking conditions that you  
see off of Vancouver Island.

I don't think it is worth buying a dedicated trailer because a kayak  
will do fine.

We were quite happy when our kids got old enough to transition to a  
double and my wife paddling a single and then a double my wife in  
single and the kids alternating in a single and then, finally, to all  
singles.

We have always been non-minimalist, comfort camping kayakers.
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From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kaboose
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 11:02:36 -0700
Short of the tow bar that the Kaboose designer includes with his package, a
towing bridle may be a better option for towing a kayak as a trailer where
that kayak has a normally high-mounted bow.

I'd though of a towing kayak as well, some time ago, and had considered
doing one in cedar strip, which would be dirt cheap and use short runs of
cedar (fence boards are cheap cheap here on V. Island; as well, it is a good
intro into boatbuilding). I never got time to do it and my family didn't
want to do long tours by kayak anymore. 

However, it is perhaps a matter of time before Kaboose-like plans show up
for DIY'ers if the proof of concept eventually warrents a broad based thumbs
up from paddlers other than the designer of the Kaboose.

DL

Robert said:   


For about 5 years we towed a kayak behind our double kayak on our week  
long trips off the west coast of Vancouver Island. My wife and I had a  
double (Seascape II) and we had two kids in it (3 -> 9)and we towed a  
kayak so that we could bring more camping gear and live in greater  
comfort. It was surprisingly workable. We paddled in a group and  
managed to keep up without too much trouble. We were out there in the  
open ocean and experienced a variety of "conditions". Cape Scott, west  
Nootka, Esperanza

For two years we towed a Keowee which is not to dissimilar to product  
described. With a following heavy sea, we once had slight problems  
with the Keowee surfing into our boat. We lengthened the line and that  
worked OK.

For three years we towed a Mariner (original). Once we learned to load  
it stern heavy that worked fine and gave us a nice single kayak to use  
when we got to our destination. I did not perceive it as being any  
more difficult than the Keowee - it may have been easier when you were  
trying to go "fast". We would typically travel at about 3.4 mph on our  
trips.

On one occasion, it got "loose" and we did not realize it for some  
time. Honestly, when you are paddling a big fat heavy double you do  
not notice it that much. Out of sight, out of mind.

We had a fairly long tow line

Anyway the Mariner is a fairly narrow kayak and some might say "tippy"  
but it was quite stable enough when it was loaded with gear with the  
heavy stuff low. If I were to do it again, I would create a towing  
point low at the bow of the towed kayak so that you were not pulling  
from such a high point as the bow of the Mariner. But we did not do it  
then and stern heavy loading it made it behave very well.

We were not doing surf landings and we were camping at sheltered  
beaches but we had the range of summer kayaking conditions that you  
see off of Vancouver Island.

I don't think it is worth buying a dedicated trailer because a kayak  
will do fine.

We were quite happy when our kids got old enough to transition to a  
double and my wife paddling a single and then a double my wife in  
single and the kids alternating in a single and then, finally, to all  
singles.
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From: Duane Strosaker <strosaker_at_yahoo.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kaboose
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 13:04:45 -0700 (PDT)
Doug,

I suppose I could design a plywood Kaboose Bennett (hardchine of course), but it wouldn't fit into my minimalist philosophy.

Duane
 

--- On Sat, 3/20/10, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote:
> I'd though of a towing kayak as well, some time ago, and
> had considered
> doing one in cedar strip, which would be dirt cheap and use
> short runs of
> cedar (fence boards are cheap cheap here on V. Island; as
> well, it is a good
> intro into boatbuilding). I never got time to do it and my
> family didn't
> want to do long tours by kayak anymore. 
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kaboose
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 13:31:11 -0700
On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Duane Strosaker <strosaker_at_yahoo.com>wrote:

> Doug,
>
> I suppose I could design a plywood Kaboose Bennett (hardchine of course),
> but it wouldn't fit into my minimalist philosophy.
>
> Just make it really, really small. :D

Craig
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From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kaboose
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 16:13:47 -0700
Yeah Duane, I knew you'd penny up here. :-)

Plywood would (wood) be good. Even simpler - two sided, flat bottom - just
like the lake kayaks at summer camp. Secure a top, hatch, and away you go. 
Me? I'd want to do a heavy motorized fiberglass version with a powerful,
compact engine with remote throttle that could tow ME, when I need to get
out of trouble or off the water fast. 

DL

Doug,

I suppose I could design a plywood Kaboose Bennett (hardchine of course),
but it wouldn't fit into my minimalist philosophy.

Duane
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From: Tord <tord_at_mindless.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kaboose
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 19:58:10 -0400
I have, on and off, been thinking of
making a big scale model of an offshore ship -
that at times would act as a tugboat, but this
kaboose idea opens up further possibilities,
especially if it was equipped with suitable
propulsion, with retractable props, or a pair of water jets.

The problems would be big watertight hatches, no doubt,
and a watertight transmitter, neither unsolvable! Bilge pump(s)
would probably be needed, and a hefty battery. Steering by
tank method, thus no movable rudder - simple and durable!

Light cargo could be carried on deck, in big Ortlieb bags, heavy
cargo would be more at home onboard the mothership kayak anyway.

Tord
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kaboose
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 07:14:08 -0700
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 10:56 PM, Robert Livingston
<bearboat2_at_comcast.net>wrote:

> For about 5 years we towed a kayak behind our double kayak on our week long
> trips off the west coast of Vancouver Island. My wife and I had a double
> (Seascape II) and we had two kids in it (3 -> 9)and we towed a kayak so that
> we could bring more camping gear and live in greater comfort. It was
> surprisingly workable. We paddled in a group and managed to keep up without
> too much trouble. We were out there in the open ocean and experienced a
> variety of "conditions". Cape Scott, west Nootka, Esperanza
>

This is exactly the sort of input that makes Paddlewise useful. For me, with
limited towing experience, it just seems counter-intuitive that towing a
kayak full of gear would not be an almost never-ending hassle.

For three years we towed a Mariner (original). Once we learned to load it
> stern heavy that worked fine and gave us a nice single kayak to use when we
> got to our destination. I did not perceive it as being any more difficult
> than the Keowee - it may have been easier when you were trying to go "fast".
> We would typically travel at about 3.4 mph on our trips.
>

I like the idea of having a single to use for exploring.  The Mariner II, by
the way, does not seem tippy at all to me and I spend all my paddling in
either that or in the F-1. The Telkwa remains for friends to use and the
Express has become my wife's boat (unless she makes me give up the F-1).


> Anyway the Mariner is a fairly narrow kayak and some might say "tippy" but
> it was quite stable enough when it was loaded with gear with the heavy stuff
> low. If I were to do it again, I would create a towing point low at the bow
> of the towed kayak so that you were not pulling from such a high point as
> the bow of the Mariner. But we did not do it then and stern heavy loading it
> made it behave very well.
>

We found that when towing dinghies it helped to fabricate a "bridle" which
moved the tow-point aft from the bow of the dinghy. Failing that a lower
tow-point was important to keep the dink's bow up.

>
> We were not doing surf landings and we were camping at sheltered beaches
> but we had the range of summer kayaking conditions that you see off of
> Vancouver Island.
>

I'm convinced that it's workable, thanks to your input.

I don't think it is worth buying a dedicated trailer because a kayak will do
> fine.
>

Having a single kayak along would make all the difference as far as I'm
concerned. Especially when you can find decent boats on craigslist at prices
not much different from that of the Kaboose.


> We were quite happy when our kids got old enough to transition to a double
> and my wife paddling a single and then a double my wife in single and the
> kids alternating in a single and then, finally, to all singles.
>

When our children were younger we lived on a small lake north of Seattle and
grandma and grandpa lived in a house on the other end of the lake about 1/4
mile away. We canoed back and forth almost daily during the summers with the
kids and dogs. Later we got into cruising on a sailboat and then, when we
returned, we got into white water kayaking. By the time we returned to sea
kayaking (which we had done before the kids were born) our kids were on
their own and eager to kayak with us in their own boats. Once we moved away
from our 2-place Folbot (which was a LOT heavier than the canoe we moved
into) we didn't have a need for anything but singles.

However, we now have grandkids ranging from 9 down to 2 and while some of
them can be stuffed quite easily into the hatches of a Telkwa (hatch covers
removed completely) we have been considering a two-hole or even three-hole
Pygmy because, inevitably, they get bigger. I have not been all that excited
about giving up the speed and performance of my Mariner kayaks but now that
you have convinced me that they can be towed this changes everything!!!

Thanks, Robert. By the way, do you have any photographs of the little boat
that became the genesis for the Mariner Coaster and, subsequently, the F-1?
It would be very interesting for me, as a dedicated fan of that kayak, to
see how the design changed over the years. For those who may not know,
Robert Livingston built a small boat that caught the attention of Matt and
cam Broze about 30 years ago and that little design eventually became the
Mariner Coaster. Then Brian Schulz, of Cape Falcon Kayaks in Oregon
experimented, with the Broze's permission, with the design in SOF which
eventually became the F-1. The F-1 has a growing following all over the
world (Brian recently did some build-seminars in Australia). It must be nice
to know that your idea back then continues to live and make paddlers happy
after all these years.


Craig Jungers
Moses Lake, WA
www.nwkayaking.net


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> We have always been non-minimalist, comfort camping kayakers.
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