MATT MARINER BROZE wrote: .........It appears to be nearly exactly how I envisioned it needed to be with strain gauges out near each blade on the shaft and three rotational accelerometers to position its orientation exactly in space at all times. The rotation sensors I felt would be a needed to prove the paddle was being used in a consistent manner during trials of different boats. I've already e-mailed Chris at Sea Kayaker the link in the hopes that they can get one to review ASAP. ........ G'Day Matt, Hope you enjoy your break. We talked about this kind of paddle abut five years ago and the role of gyroscopic measurement as well as three axis accelerometers. It looks as if the Talon software has come a long way since then. A paddle restricted to just accelerometers would probably require a double integration in three axes to solve the relevant equations and consequently a deal of calibration and the data could be quite noisy. Hence the potential for gyroscopic measurement. These transducers are now small enough and with fast enough response times to be used in this application and I suspect they have been incorporated. Its a topic Andrew Eddy (an erstwhile Paddlewiser) and I have been discussing at some length as the techniques involved are similar to some that we use in vibration testing of transportation systems. Margi at Canberra University is likely also working with the Australian Institute of Sport who train athletes for the Olympics. As its a locally built product I'll try contacting her and see if I can get some feedback for Paddlewise and my own interest in the algorithms used. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter wrote >We talked about this kind of paddle abut five years ago and the role of gyroscopic measurement >as well as three axis accelerometers. It looks as if the Talon software has come a long way since then. >A paddle restricted to just accelerometers would probably require a double integration in three axes >to solve the relevant equations and consequently a deal of calibration and the data could be quite noisy. >Hence the potential for gyroscopic measurement. These transducers are now small enough and with fast >enough response times to be used in this application and I suspect they have been incorporated. Its a >topic Andrew Eddy (an erstwhile Paddlewiser) and I have been discussing at some length as the techniques >involved are similar to some that we use in vibration testing of transportation systems. >Margi at Canberra University is likely also working with the Australian Institute of Sport who train >athletes for the Olympics. As its a locally built product I'll try contacting her and see if I can get >some feedback for Paddlewise and my own interest in the algorithms used. G'day Matt, Richard and Paddle wise, Talon Technology, the manufacturers of the kayak data acquisition paddle, are located fairly close to Stiffies, where I store a boat, so I gave them a call. We talked briefly about the issues of measuring blade trajectory as well as rotation and they have gone some way towards this with their kayak paddle, using three axis accelerometers. However, they thought there would be some difficulty in measuring kayak paddle sweep strokes with the present system. If I've understood correctly it looks as if the paddle is good for analysing racing paddle strokes as intended, including paddle blade angles in the water, but not adequate yet for analysing rolls, sculling or sweep strokes. However, Talon do have an experimental version embedded in their rowing oars, which is not only fitted with accelerometers but also gyro's and magnetometers. This shows promise, to me at any rate, for being adapted to analysing kayak paddle movement during rolling, bracing, sweeping etc and they seemed quite interested in the ideas Andrew Eddy and I were discussing. We will visit them in the next few days to see if these ideas make sense and how they might be developed further. Their paddles can be readily configured to supply the raw data from the transducers so it might be a viable proposition to get a special made with gyro and magnetometers fitted, for kayaking applications beyond forward stroke. As anticipated Talon's collaborators are working with the Australian Institute of Sport. Richard Smith at Sydney University is also carrying out research in this area, while Margi Bohm of Canberra University wrote the review in the 'Canoe and Kayak Racing' Magazine. I for one will look forward to Matt's formal analysis and review, and to talking with Talon engineers about how the paddle might be developed further. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 1:19 AM, PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com>wrote: > > Talon Technology, the manufacturers of the kayak data acquisition paddle, > are located fairly close to Stiffies, where I store a boat, so I gave them > a > call. We talked briefly about the issues of measuring blade trajectory as > well as rotation and they have gone some way towards this with their kayak > paddle, using three axis accelerometers. > Just mulling through the ideas made me wonder whether they will integrate their paddle data with instant boat speed. I would imagine that a paddlewheel device would be more likely to tell you whether a given paddle stroke actually accelerated the boat. A GPS would be too slow. Have they given this any thought or are they simply interested in paddle dynamics? Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
That is what I'm hoping can be done somehow. Add the imput from a knotmeter ro the data at the same time. That is what will be needed to measure the drag on different kayak hulls at various speeds (plus a lot of other variables controlled). Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 07:02:44 -0700 Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Electronic paddle - was bracing and power From: crjungers_at_gmail.com To: rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com CC: marinerkayaks_at_msn.com; culpeper_at_tbaytel.net; paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 1:19 AM, PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com> wrote: Talon Technology, the manufacturers of the kayak data acquisition paddle, are located fairly close to Stiffies, where I store a boat, so I gave them a call. We talked briefly about the issues of measuring blade trajectory as well as rotation and they have gone some way towards this with their kayak paddle, using three axis accelerometers. Just mulling through the ideas made me wonder whether they will integrate their paddle data with instant boat speed. I would imagine that a paddlewheel device would be more likely to tell you whether a given paddle stroke actually accelerated the boat. A GPS would be too slow. Have they given this any thought or are they simply interested in paddle dynamics? Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Carey Parks <carey_at_jimparksfamily.com> Date: Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] RE: Electronic paddle - was bracing and power To: PeterO <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com> Peter et al, I was stumbling around in the Android Marketplace looking for cool stuff for my phone (and I use that term "phone" loosely) and I ran across an app for rowing that displays and records the boat acceleration and also infers stroke rate, and some other things by using the "phone's" integrated GPS and three axis accelerometer. It's pretty good. Both the app and my device. http://nargila.org/trac/robostroke/wiki It of course does not integrate paddle dynamics, but to my mind they can be separated and still be useful. Maybe not optimal, but useful, and the cost is zero since I own the phone. The system (given boat, paddle, paddler, water) has an input, the paddlers stroke, and an output, the boat acceleration. I can think of two distinct scenarios where the optimal paddle stroke could be different. One is a sprint, when the goal is maximum boat speed, and the other is a cruise where the goal is maximum boat speed at a maximum heart rate, or a minimum heart rate for a given boat speed. I don't have the electronic paddle, but I do have a heart rate monitor and now this thingy to display and record boat acceleration. I'm going to go have a play with them both and see how the instant feedback on the effectiveness of a paddle stroke helps me adjust my stroke (GP) to get the most effect on the boat. Lots of things might come into play, like how much of the power developed by the paddle is absorbed by my body and not transmitted to the boat? I will try things like feet on and off the pegs, tight back band, different paddle grips. (I only have one paddle so I'm going to leave paddle length alone!!!) Best, Carey -- http://parkswhistles.com/ http://www.facebook.com/carey.parks http://twitter.com/LuthierCarey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Peter, No, I don't have anything to send BlueTooth to the device other than my computer, which is not going paddling. The software will accept Bluetooth input from a heart rate monitor, but only one model as it is interfaced to it's output stream. I guess XML has not arrived on the scene yet. ;-> The take-away point from that is if there were a BlueTooth data stream available someone could write code to grab it an I would think log it along with the accelerometer data. Today I went looking and I have found several other free apps that will plot and log the accelerometer data. One converts to m/s^2 and logs that value. I can create a log with timestamps in ms from Jan 1, 1970 so it should be easy to correlate multiple logs provided they have their clocks set the same and/or as you suggest there is some sync pulse. It might work to strap the device to the paddle shaft and swing the paddle around a couple times then move the device to it's logging position for the trials. Sadly, these later apps require post processing. I would like to have a display that would give me instant feedback (that I could see in the sunlight) of the effect of my strokes. I'm thinking that a ten second integration might be good to allow me to alter some aspect of my stroke and see what effect that has on the boat speed. The key is accuracy. GPS speed is quick enough but not precise enough to know if the change is me or just noise. I think gathering the data is quite possible given these tools, and the challenge will be knowing what data corresponds to what changes in form or other application of the paddle to the water. There are two approaches that might have merit for different purposes. Prerecorded instructions to the paddler and live recording of paddler audio. I've tested both of these techniques sitting here in my office and the device seems to handle both of them just fine. One thing I don't know, is if the logged values are instantaneous acceleration values or averages for the time interval. If it were averaged then it would be more useful for positional calculations, but I expect it is instantaneous, and average acceleration will have to be assumed, which is OK if the sample rate is high enough compared to the acceleration of the vehicle. The mp3 player comes with the device. Here are links to the apps I'm looking at. No connection to any of them other than I'm trying them out: Auto mic gain audio recorder: http://tapemachine.samalyse.com/ Accelerometer logs: http://www.androlib.com/android.application.org-nargila-robostroke-android-app-jzCFp.aspx http://www.androlib.com/android.application.pt-acoelhosantos-android-acc-nFwm.aspx http://www.androlib.com/android.application.com-freshprogramming-sensortive-xDwB.aspx http://www.androlib.com/android.application.com-ohisamallc-ohiapp29-jwDCF.aspx http://www.androlib.com/android.application.abs-sensor-ADpA.aspx I probably won't go paddling to try these ideas until Thursday (GMT -4) and will continue to think about the issues and/or play with spreadsheets to convert the data into speed values or other relative numbers that could be used to compare techniques for better or for worse. As in any other investigation, it's important to know what one is try to achieve, and in my case I would like to know what is my most efficient paddle stroke for A) steady state cruise, and B) burst acceleration. Carey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Carey wrote: ...................I've uploaded some of the data I collected today to Box.net and sent you an invite to share the folder.................................. G'Day Thanks Carey your paddling data came through nicely and I'll start working through it on Saturday. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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