_tbt*_ (http://tampabaytimes.fl.newsmemory.com/) (page 14 if the link doesn't open to the story) list, article in the st. pete times about a lost kayaker in tampa bay..... actually two kayakers.... one made it.... one didn't ...... steve tampa/st. pete *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Article mentions that water temperatures below 60-degrees are dangerous but doesn't say a word about what sort of clothing to wear as protection; just wear a PFD. Interesting. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:13 PM, <Nole4ever_at_aol.com> wrote: > _tbt*_ (http://tampabaytimes.fl.newsmemory.com/) > (page 14 if the link doesn't open to the story) > > list, > > article in the st. pete times about a lost kayaker in tampa bay..... > actually two kayakers.... > one made it.... one didn't ...... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
craig, i agree that more information would have been appropriate, but i find a general disregard of safety around here..... and with the air temp this week in the low to mid 70's, i'm surprised that we don't have more accidents like this.... steve tampa/st pete In a message dated 1/31/2011 5:54:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, crjungers_at_gmail.com writes: Article mentions that water temperatures below 60-degrees are dangerous but doesn't say a word about what sort of clothing to wear as protection; just wear a PFD. Interesting. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA _www.nwkayaking.net_ (http://www.nwkayaking.net/) On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:13 PM, <_Nole4ever_at_aol.com_ (mailto:Nole4ever_at_aol.com) > wrote: _tbt*_ (_http://tampabaytimes.fl.newsmemory.com/_ (http://tampabaytimes.fl.newsmemory.com/) ) (page 14 if the link doesn't open to the story) list, article in the st. pete times about a lost kayaker in tampa bay..... actually two kayakers.... one made it.... one didn't ...... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Educating paddlers about the effects of cold water on warm days is one of the "layers of complexity" in kayaking that affect no other sport that I know of and I think needs to be emphasized in paddling magazines and instructors. It is VERY difficult to tell someone that they could be in life-threatening danger by paddling their canoe/kayak on a nice day across cold water. And this is complicated by the simple fact that no one is going to buy a $900 drysuit (or even a $120 farmer john) for a couple hours of time on the water. Maybe those of us who paddle 100 miles or more a year lose sight of this. But lots of kayakers and canoists only do it two or three times a year, don't read paddling magazines, don't take lessons, and don't understand the issues. A PFD is a simple "solution" to only one "layer" of the problem (flotation) but you can buy them everywhere for $50 (or even less); marinas have them on hooks at the head of docks for FREE!. Even with government agencies, news journals, blogs, magazines and word-of-mouth about PFDs we still see paddlers on significant journeys across quite cold water not wearing them. Pam and I have seen entire flotillas of kayaks crossing from James Island just off the west coast of Orcas Island on their way to Sucia Island (ten miles or more) with no one - not even the "leaders" - wearing their PFDs and every youth (it was some sort of youth group) in swim suits or tee shirts and shorts! There is really nothing out there that we can tell them to wear that they can simply buy at a local store. Maybe we should start to promote those little "water skier" shorty-wet-suits that you can buy at Costco for $39.95. I really don't know the solution to this. Or if there even is a solution. People look at you like you're crazy when you suggest it. I can understand Chuck's frustration but if they don't even wear their PFDs when wearing them is so highly publicized getting them to wear fleece or wet suits or anything other than a cotton tee shirt and jeans with sandals is going to be a struggle. Maybe you just can't cure stupidity. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayakng.net On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 2:33 AM, <Nole4ever_at_aol.com> wrote: > craig, > > i agree that more information would have been appropriate, but i find a > general disregard of safety > around here..... and with the air temp this week in the low to mid 70's, > i'm surprised that we don't > have more accidents like this.... > steve > tampa/st pete *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The solution to this problem is obvious, cruel, perverse, and I'm already regreting saying it, but paddlers who don't wear dry suits or wet suits need to be ticketed and fined big time. This is painful to bring up, because I have never owned a drysuit, and outgrew my wetsuit years ago. I paddle to camp and fish, and have done a lot of dumb things to get to the neat places. I have been miles out to sea wearing only polypro and windshell, and my friends have done the same. But we're all living in a fool's paradise. In order to partially redeem myself, let me suggest that offending paddlers be fined severely, but the fine should be rescinded upon purchase of a wetsuit or drysuit, by demonstrating a receipt to the courts. Yes, I'd be sitting in my kayak on a warm, sunny day, wearing a drysuit, grumbling to myself, but a grumbling human is better than a dead human. -- Bradford R. Crain Quoting Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>: > Educating paddlers about the effects of cold water on warm days is one of > the "layers of complexity" in kayaking that affect no other sport that I > know of and I think needs to be emphasized in paddling magazines and > instructors. It is VERY difficult to tell someone that they could be in > life-threatening danger by paddling their canoe/kayak on a nice day across > cold water. And this is complicated by the simple fact that no one is going > to buy a $900 drysuit (or even a $120 farmer john) for a couple hours of > time on the water. Maybe those of us who paddle 100 miles or more a year > lose sight of this. But lots of kayakers and canoists only do it two or > three times a year, don't read paddling magazines, don't take lessons, and > don't understand the issues. > > A PFD is a simple "solution" to only one "layer" of the problem (flotation) > but you can buy them everywhere for $50 (or even less); marinas have them on > hooks at the head of docks for FREE!. Even with government agencies, news > journals, blogs, magazines and word-of-mouth about PFDs we still see > paddlers on significant journeys across quite cold water not wearing them. > Pam and I have seen entire flotillas of kayaks crossing from James Island > just off the west coast of Orcas Island on their way to Sucia Island (ten > miles or more) with no one - not even the "leaders" - wearing their PFDs and > every youth (it was some sort of youth group) in swim suits or tee shirts > and shorts! > > There is really nothing out there that we can tell them to wear that they > can simply buy at a local store. Maybe we should start to promote those > little "water skier" shorty-wet-suits that you can buy at Costco for $39.95. > > I really don't know the solution to this. Or if there even is a solution. > People look at you like you're crazy when you suggest it. > > I can understand Chuck's frustration but if they don't even wear their PFDs > when wearing them is so highly publicized getting them to wear fleece or wet > suits or anything other than a cotton tee shirt and jeans with sandals is > going to be a struggle. > > Maybe you just can't cure stupidity. > > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayakng.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Brad said: > need to be ticketed and fined big time No, please, a thousand times no.... Isn't kayaking about being a responsible adult ? Please, let's just educate people and promote responsible decision-making and let them go to perdition in their own independent way... If the problem is serious enough, spend the money to make sure everyone hears the message (and can't forget it). If the problem is not that serious - put up with the deaths as the price of free-will. If a paddler has not only one good roll, but 32 different rolls and chooses to wear a tuilik; who are we to tell her that - for her own good - she must be fined into wearing a $#!% dry-suit ? Do we not have too many folk telling us what is safe for us to do ? Telling us is one thing, often it's useful; but fining us for not obeying - when we choose to disagree - is something we already have way too much of. Brad - tell me you wouldn't put Homeland Security in charge of it ;-) Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There is actually a difference between stupidity and lack of awareness. Many of us - through training or experience - think (more or less deeply) about risk when we start to do something new. There are many who don't do this - simply because life hasn't yet led them to do so. For this group, we have labels saying "Don't put fingers into mower blades", "Don't stand on packing box", "Keep plastic bag away from infants". Are any of these useful for more than liability-avoidance ? For this group, a nation-wide, long-running series of well-designed, maximum-shock-value, full-colour TV and print ads will force awareness of risk on a population which doesn't drive sober, or drive belted, or dress for immersion when playing on the water. The ads need to stress death, blood, agony, tears and reinforce the message that it's not 'if' but 'when' and that it _will_ happen or _can_ happen to anybody. That works to break down the 'can't happen to me' armour. This is an expensive route - very expensive - but effective at changing a whole society's behaviour within a decade. I've watched it happen here in NZ for seatbelts & drunk-driving. I'm not sure much else works... In a modern world, we self-insulate extremely well against spam. Effective public re-programming is hard. But if you can justify the expense, you can make people permanently aware of the risks. The smallish number of people who continue to practice the high-risk activity after being made aware that it is high-risk... they are just stupid. So, in the case of avoidable cold-water death - what's the cost-benefit ratio of deaths vs ad-campaign? Are there other under-appreciated risks, further up that scale, still / also waiting for funding ? Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It used to be teenagers primarily who felt they were immortal and acted accordingly. This seems to have spread over the ages now. Here in NJ now we see a ;ack of coution by drivers in the snow and ice. They ignore it. I don't know why this has developed. One factor that is always glaringly absent is the idea of dressing for the water, not the air. It's almost never mentioned. I suppose that at least partly it's associated with the above. "I'm NOT one of those who will capsize. That's for the others." Perhaps getting that notion across could be helpful. WRT proper clothing; I lived in Florida for a long time (Gainesville) and of course it got cold in the winter, and we learned to dress for the occasions. I did use a wetsuit during the colder weather. But even during the warmer summer weather I found myself wearing it. --Not for the usual paddling but I was doing fieldwork in some of the springs there. Constant year-round temps of 72 degress or so. If I were immersed in that water for more than 30-40 minutes I would become seriously chilled. You Had to wear one. -----Original Message----- >From: Nole4ever_at_aol.com >craig, >i agree that more information would have been appropriate, but i find a >general disregard of safety >around here..... and with the air temp this week in the low to mid 70's, >i'm surprised that we don't >have more accidents like this.... >steve >tampa/st pete > >crjungers_at_gmail.com writes: >Article mentions that water temperatures below 60-degrees are dangerous >but doesn't say a word about what sort of clothing to wear as protection; >just wear a PFD. Interesting. > >_tbt*_ (_http://tampabaytimes.fl.newsmemory.com/_ >(http://tampabaytimes.fl.newsmemory.com/) ) >(page 14 if the link doesn't open to the story) >article in the st. pete times about a lost kayaker in tampa bay..... >actually two kayakers.... >one made it.... one didn't ...... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, i couldn't agree with you more ..... a large part of the problem around here is that most of the kayaks used in these parts are "sit-on-tops"..... open tops, self bailing w/scupper holes.....and after a month or more of "ugly, cold" weather, when the day dawns - clear, calm, & sunny with the air temps getting close to 80, some folks just don't realize how cold the water still is .... i have 4 kayaks... all of them "sit-on-top" .... and to be honest i too have been guilty of paddling "under dressed" ..... i have neoprene shorts and top that i wear .... not all the time, but i have them...... and i don't even want to talk about the rentals..... i could go on and on about that problem. i have introduced a number of people to the sport.... i have taken groups on paddles to include overnight camping..... even after giving out printed information on what to bring, and what not to bring .... i still get some folks who just can't seem to grasp the situation .... you said it best .... "you can't fix stupid" steve tampa/st. pete In a message dated 2/1/2011 3:40:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, crjungers_at_gmail.com writes: Educating paddlers about the effects of cold water on warm days is one of the "layers of complexity" in kayaking that affect no other sport that I know of and I think needs to be emphasized in paddling magazines and instructors. It is VERY difficult to tell someone that they could be in life-threatening danger by paddling their canoe/kayak on a nice day across cold water. And this is complicated by the simple fact that no one is going to buy a $900 drysuit (or even a $120 farmer john) for a couple hours of time on the water. Maybe those of us who paddle 100 miles or more a year lose sight of this. But lots of kayakers and canoists only do it two or three times a year, don't read paddling magazines, don't take lessons, and don't understand the issues. A PFD is a simple "solution" to only one "layer" of the problem (flotation) but you can buy them everywhere for $50 (or even less); marinas have them on hooks at the head of docks for FREE!. Even with government agencies, news journals, blogs, magazines and word-of-mouth about PFDs we still see paddlers on significant journeys across quite cold water not wearing them. Pam and I have seen entire flotillas of kayaks crossing from James Island just off the west coast of Orcas Island on their way to Sucia Island (ten miles or more) with no one - not even the "leaders" - wearing their PFDs and every youth (it was some sort of youth group) in swim suits or tee shirts and shorts! There is really nothing out there that we can tell them to wear that they can simply buy at a local store. Maybe we should start to promote those little "water skier" shorty-wet-suits that you can buy at Costco for $39.95. I really don't know the solution to this. Or if there even is a solution. People look at you like you're crazy when you suggest it. I can understand Chuck's frustration but if they don't even wear their PFDs when wearing them is so highly publicized getting them to wear fleece or wet suits or anything other than a cotton tee shirt and jeans with sandals is going to be a struggle. Maybe you just can't cure stupidity. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA _www.nwkayakng.net_ (http://www.nwkayakng.net/) On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 2:33 AM, <_Nole4ever_at_aol.com_ (mailto:Nole4ever_at_aol.com) > wrote: craig, i agree that more information would have been appropriate, but i find a general disregard of safety around here..... and with the air temp this week in the low to mid 70's, i'm surprised that we don't have more accidents like this.... steve tampa/st pete *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There are so many variables.....too many to be dogmatic, ever <grin> I was paddling 30 miles south the day this paddler went missing. Cold and windy. I had on immersion pants, an insignificant sun blocking shirt, a "turtle" neck warmer and a hat. Pogies would have been nice. We were doing some distance training for the Everglades challenge and camped out the night before! A full wet or dry suit would have been taxing and cut into my miles. The day before, I paddled in running shorts (and hat and neck warmer). I was perhaps safer in that I probably wasn't coming out of boat, and if I did was probably getting back in alone, plus I had two paddling partners, plus VHS, etc...). We did hear the channel 16 alerts for the missing kayaker and as expected the mistakes were grounded more in ignorance (= not knowing what we don't know, rather than stupidity) Steve Bailey ACA level 4 coastal kayak inst. Michigan On 2/2/2011 7:00 AM, Nole4ever_at_aol.com wrote: > Craig, > > i couldn't agree with you more ..... a large part of the problem around > here is that most of the kayaks > used in these parts are "sit-on-tops"..... open tops, self bailing > w/scupper holes.....and after a month or > more of "ugly, cold" weather, when the day dawns - clear, calm,& sunny > with the air temps getting close to > 80, some folks just don't realize how cold the water still is .... i have > 4 kayaks... all of them "sit-on-top" .... > and to be honest i too have been guilty of paddling "under dressed" ..... > i have neoprene shorts and top that i wear .... not all the time, but i > have them...... and i don't even want to talk about the rentals..... i could > go on and on about that problem. i have introduced a number of people to > the sport.... i have taken groups on paddles to include overnight > camping..... even after giving out printed information on what to bring, and what > not to bring .... i still get some folks who just can't seem to grasp the > situation .... > you said it best .... "you can't fix stupid" > > steve > tampa/st. pete *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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