He was in the water somewhat beyond his 1-10-1 time limit recommended by Dr. Geisbrecht, the guy who studies clothing for snowmobilers out on the lake ice, but who recommends just pfds for boaters! (because, according to Boot Camp, the only clothing available for boaters is gummby survival suits or float coats). The words of the diehard landsman that he is, which is clear from his book on dressing for cold weather. http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-kayaker-rescued-from-icy-lake-monroe-20110213 ,0,6904372.story Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 8:56 AM, skimmer <skimmer_at_enter.net> wrote: > He was in the water somewhat beyond his 1-10-1 time limit > Despite calling for help almost immediately and the dive team arriving at a launch spot a mile away it took over 2 hours to get him out of the water. This guy would have been a dead duck if he hadn't been wearing a wet suit (I presume "farmer john"). So... my question for people who claim that a PFD is the "best" way to survive in cold water... do they think that wearing a drysuit or a FJ in addition to a PFD is actually less safe? Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A PFD is your back-up buoyancy should you remain in the water for any length of time. A human body is mostly water so weighs little when in the water. Add a human's fat content (more for Mark) which has inherent buoyancy and only a small amount of redundant buoyancy is needed to support a body in the water. Around 30 pounds or a little more is reasonably sufficient in jumbly water. Any PFD is better than no PFD; a PFD that provides adequate buoyancy in steep sea states is even better (usually has inflatable buoyancy compartments); a PFD that keeps the swimmer's head facing above-water if unconsciousness ensues is best. As equally important or correspondingly beneficial where there is more chance of getting wet in cold water, a base layer of insulation and an overlayer of raingear is better than just a shirt and shorts; a Farmer John/Jane with paddling jacket or drysuit with a base layer reasonably insulative enough is still better; a full-on survival suit probably best. There's an overlap of buoyancy depending upon the combination worn. Performance athlete's face some tough (as do recreational sea kayakers on a hot day on cold water) choices and as such had best to err on the side of caution when approaching rough water, anticipating the possibility of encountering rough water, or making for a long crossing or attempting passages where gap winds could play havock. This sadly has not been the case where performance paddlers end up in the water. There is always a lack of prudence evident and a failure, one presumes, to anticipate the consequences of a capsize. For routine training sessions, a chase boat should be mandatory, or at least well considered. Where this is not practical, perhaps routes should be revised. Perhaps a land-based activity is more appropriate for those who can't comprehend cold-water dynamics. Where individuals or groups of paddlers train in colder, jobbly waters with wind, such as surf ski paddlers who do indeed challenge big water routinely, high-skill/superb reboarding skills are a real necessity. There really is no good, better, best when it comes to cold water survival. There are choices, adherences to safety norms, and compromises in gear selection where performance requirements dictate certain practicalities. The authorities recognize the importance of personal floatation devices, it may overstate them in some cases, but the recognition is for both active boaters (us) and inactive boaters (power boaters). Chuck understands the importance of PFD's but feels there should be more awareness and official recognition for cold water immersion protection. This is fair enough. I doubt there will ever be regulations regarding immersion protection. There might be a push in the next few years toward the mandatory wearing of PFD's given the number of boating fatalities and the high cost associated with these losses. Enforcement officers would certainly have an easier time as they would instantly be able to see the PFD being worn or not (infraction) as opposed to the time-consuming checking over of the vessel. I know first hand what it is like to suffer the loss of nerve conduction, fine motor skills and the loss of appendage muscle contraction. The less protection and the less buoyancy you have works quickly against you and in real wind and waves it can be difficult to hang on to your boat as well as difficult to facilitate corrective stroke action to avoid head and facial water threats to breathing. A savvy paddler knows survival ultimately equates to timely removal from the cold water environment, rather than finding ways to increase thermal protection and retaining body heat. I can't answer the question(s) raised lately. What is less safe? I can ask a question: death from cold water immersion is a real possibility so are you more safe wearing a PFD or immersion apparel? I'll take the PFD with good buoyancy that minimizes my immersion and keeps my airway less susceptible both during the initial cold shock period as well as later if self-rescue is delayed and waves start to overwhelm during the fatigue phase; correspondingly, reasonable immersion protection and head/hand protection should allow functionality for timely self-rescue, help lessen cold-shock, and mitigate against cascading failure during difficulties and delayed rescue (by whatever means) from the cold water. Doug Lloyd On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 8:56 AM, skimmer <skimmer_at_enter.net> wrote: > He was in the water somewhat beyond his 1-10-1 time limit > Despite calling for help almost immediately and the dive team arriving at a launch spot a mile away it took over 2 hours to get him out of the water. This guy would have been a dead duck if he hadn't been wearing a wet suit (I presume "farmer john"). So... my question for people who claim that a PFD is the "best" way to survive in cold water... do they think that wearing a drysuit or a FJ in addition to a PFD is actually less safe? Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A friend is a test engineer for Consumers Union and a few years ago they did a comparative study of PFDs, primarily the Type III designation -- what we paddlers normally wear. He said that the buoyancy of these jackets was somewhat over 15 pounds, perhaps a bit more. This level was selected for recreational activity to allow enough flotation to keep one's head and one arm above the water. The former so you can breathe and see, the arm to wave with or grab ropes... Joe P. -----Original Message----- >From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> >>A PFD is your back-up buoyancy should you remain in the water for any length >of time. A human body is mostly water so weighs little when in the water. >Add a human's fat content (more for Mark) which has inherent buoyancy and >only a small amount of redundant buoyancy is needed to support a body in the >water. Around 30 pounds or a little more is reasonably sufficient in jumbly >water. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joe, For me, 10 pounds combined with my other gear would provide minimal flotation. 20 to 25 instant pounds with that same amount of drysuit floatation would be ideal. I think Kokatat have a hybrid model that would fit the bill, but too may "bills" for me right now. Fully inflatable models do best but have reduces R values, trauma protection, and storage conveniences. There are even times when I regret wearing any flotation but the memories of deep water disasters with airway difficulties moderates my attitude. Generally, I only consider and associate maximal buoyancy ideals with very, very cold winter paddling. Everything else is just fun. Deep temperature lows and rough water mean I'll be in my diver-modified drysuit and fully-inflatable Mustang vest (no connection to company). For the bulk of recreational users, 15 pounds is fine, about what I generally prefer these days; however, my post was meant to add impetus to the desirability of paddlers choosing their gear with some thoughts about safety parameters (as opposed to hey, "this Kokatat Mango-coloured PFD matches my mango-coloured drysuit" (insert manufacturer of your preference). Doug Joe said: A friend is a test engineer for Consumers Union and a few years ago they did a comparative study of PFDs, primarily the Type III designation -- what we paddlers normally wear. He said that the buoyancy of these jackets was somewhat over 15 pounds, perhaps a bit more. This level was selected for recreational activity to allow enough flotation to keep one's head and one arm above the water. The former so you can breathe and see, the arm to wave with or grab ropes... Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 8:59 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > For me, 10 pounds combined with my other gear would provide minimal > flotation. 20 to 25 instant pounds with that same amount of drysuit > floatation would be ideal. I think Kokatat have a hybrid model that would > fit the bill, but too may "bills" for me right now. > I have one of those Kokatat SeaO2 PFDs; in fact it's my second one... I bought my first for only $99 at a kayak seminar in Tacoma and when that one burned up in the shop fire I bought a second one (this time for $200!). My feelings were (and still are) that you never know when you'll need that extra flotation even if it's to help you roll up. With no air in the chambers I believe the Kokatat is 13lbs of flotation which is probably enough for calm water and a reasonably nice day. But inflated there is something like 22lbs of flotation! The other thing I liked about the Kokatat PFD is that it's minimal bulk when you're paddling. Very little there to get in the way and it's extremely comfortable. If you do any paddling where you are likely to find yourself in rough water (at the time I was spending a lot of time at Deception Pass) or would just like minimal bulk in a PFD while getting maximum potential flotation then the Kokatat is worth the money. It's not going to inflate if you are incapacitated - which can be a drawback but seems to me to be a minor consideration for sea kayakers. The SeaO2 has an automatic inflation feature (pull the rip cord) but it also has provision for inflation manually (which is all I've ever done). Highly recommended despite the price. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Saturday, 19 February 2011 04:30 Craig said: 'minimal bulk in a PFD while getting maximum potential flotation' Thanks for the insights on the 2-way PFD. My old multi-pocket unit is on its last legs (mine;-) and I'm thinking of a 2-way combined with an over-vest for pockets & tow system... anyone else played with that idea ? Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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