I noticed a distinct similarity between the Zegul Baidarka reviewed in the recent issue of Sea Kayaker Magazine and one of my designs. I've blogged my reaction to that similarity: http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/blog/nick/how_should_i_react_zegultahe_baidarka I'd be interested in getting some feedback. Am I over or under reacting? Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
And of course, Nick Schade certainly deserves an apology above all :) (proof reading would help..., sorry Nick :) ) > On Jun 30, 2011 2:29 PM, "Jackie Myers" <jackie_at_muddypuppies.com > <mailto:jackie_at_muddypuppies.com>> wrote: > > I agree. Harvey has nailed it... to lift intellectual property and > > quotes, is unethical and Steve deserves an apology/acknowledgement from > > Tahe/Zegul and it should appear in Sea Kayaker. > > > > Sorry this happened to you, Steve :-/ I hope they make it right by you > > and by the readers of Sea Kayaker. > > > > > > Jackie > > > > > > Harvey Golden wrote: > > > >>Dear Nick and all, Probably the most important lesson I've learned > in life is > >>to give credit and acknowledgement where due--- and even a little > where it > >>isn't. I can't think of much worse than having one's intellectual > property > >>lifted and presented as another's original design. It speaks to such > a low > >>ethic and desperate insecurity. > >> > >> > > ........... > > > >>On Jun 30, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > >> > >> > > .......... > > > >>>I'm convinced that the folks at Tahe have at least read Nick's blog > about > >>> his design. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Welcome to the club Nick. I think the best thing you can do is to do what you are now doing and point out the copying and let it be widely known. Other paddlers can then be aware of it and act according to their own feelings about the issue. We licensed CS Canoe in Italy to build Coasters. They put in a bigger cockpit and sold it as a recreational kayak and the advertising portrays it as not being very capable. for example: " However, given the kayaks limited size, open sea crossings are not advised." Next they cut the Coaster in two and added some straight sections in the middle to make it a little longer and called it the Korsa 15.4. They advertise it as: "Thanks to its centre of gravity biased aft and balanced volume forward, this kayak is unbeatable at surfing waves even in the hands of novices." (even though one paddler who has paddled both says the Coaster is the far superior surfing kayak). Every bit of our Coaster still looks to be their in the Korsa model, but it lacks one feature somewhat important to us, that would be....royalty payments. Now checking the website, I see they also have a Korsa 16.7 that looks to also have the entire Coaster comprising its bow and stern parts as well. They now have three versions of the Coaster itself but we haven't seen any royalty payments in years. The had the gall to contact us a while back asking to buy just a few Coaster licenses. Please don't buy any kayaks from CS Canoe and if you see any Coaster from them please check for a small white license inside and report to me what the number is (or if there was no license). Some companies just blatantly steal designs, trademarked names, and ad copy. One company used the Coaster name and refused to discontinue using it when I contacted them about it. They said they didn't mind sharing the name with us. They also said they were a small company on the other side of the country, so what was my problem. Next I see it in a Sea Kayaker review with the Coaster name attached. The company appears to now be defunct. I was hoping they would do real well with the kayak because then they might have been worth suing. Many Paddlewisers already know the story of the Nadgee Explorer in Australia and how the plans for it came from the Sea Kayaker review lines drawing of the Mariner Max. Seaward Kayaks knocked off the Arluk II and called it the Ascente, knocked off the Seda Tango and called it the Southwind, and knocked off Southwind Kayaks' (a southern California kayak store) palm tree logo for their name decal for that kayak. At one point I thought I recognized a bunch of Seaward's ad copy as something I'd seen before in a Canoe and Kayak magazine. Sure enough, once I found it, I called the magazine and asked if they had given permission for its use, they hadn't. I suspect their are many more rip-offs involving Seaward Kayaks but I just don't know about them. As a result, I refused to buy anything from that company for our store that I might have otherwise purchased from them. Nick, your Website says: "So, I'm going with some deck lines. I'll have a basic shock cord system in front of the cockpit and some more around the hatches. I want to keep these as low profile as possible. The system I've determined to have the least visual impact is a simple hole through the boat with shock cord pulled through the hole. If you make a 1/4" hole and pull through a 5/16" shock cord, the cord will pretty much seal up the hole with maybe a little water wicking through the braided jacket of the cord." We have been doing that since 1980 for the chart lines (so the paddler can't bark his knuckles on a fitting there) and never saw it done that way before we did it. Note: with the right size hole through the deck you won't get any leaking at all. Were you aware we were doing it that way? Did you see it somewhere else (I haven't). So, where's the attribution on your website for the idea? ;-) In our FAQ's you will find detailed directions for how to restring the shock cord for our customers who need to replace it. If you haven't seen it already the tips in our FAQ might help you get the shock cord through an even smaller hole to ensure a good seal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jul 1, 2011, at 5:29 AM, MATT MARINER BROZE wrote: > Welcome to the club Nick. I think the best thing you can do is to do what you > are now doing and point out the copying and let it be widely known. Other > paddlers can then be aware of it and act according to their own feelings about > the issue. > I know this is not a unique problem for me. I was hemming and hawing about doing anything about it and felt a little blog post might help. It currently looks as though the issue has been resolved amicably, so it looks like I may have been correct. I have added a link on my feed-through shock-cord page to your FAQ. Your use of frames on you webpage complicates linking would you rather I link some other way, please let me know. > > We have been doing that since 1980 for the chart lines (so the paddler can't > bark his knuckles on a fitting there) and never saw it done that way before we > did it. Note: with the right size hole through the deck you won't get any > leaking at all. Were you aware we were doing it that way? Did you see it > somewhere else (I haven't). So, where's the attribution on your website for > the idea? ;-) In our FAQ's you will find detailed directions for how to > restring the shock cord for our customers who need to replace it. If you > haven't seen it already the tips in our FAQ might help you get the shock cord > through an even smaller hole to ensure a good seal. > Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My first reaction to the Tahe Baidarka was that it didn't look much like a baidarka to me. But I'm certainly no expert. My first reaction to Nick's post was, "Damn! Someone copied someone else's design!"; as if this had never happened before. I've certainly listened to enough stories by kayak designers to understand that this is not at all uncommon. It's even common to have the company that contracted to build a design subsequently copy it and market an almost-identical (looking) kayak with a different name. And I know there is a certain amount of acrimony over this. But I read Nick's blog and then I read the wording he quotes; some of which is, word-for-word, Nick's description of his design philosophy presented as their design philosophy. It's hard for me to believe that this is coincidence. Mind you, not every word in their "designer's statement in Sea Kayaker is identical, but it seems to me that something like, "As kayak designer Nick Schade has said...." might have been appropriate. I'm convinced that the folks at Tahe have at least read Nick's blog about his design. Whether or not their design is a take-off of his I'll leave to the folks who understand designs better than I do. Craig On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com>wrote: > I noticed a distinct similarity between the Zegul Baidarka reviewed in the > recent issue of Sea Kayaker Magazine and one of my designs. I've blogged my > reaction to that similarity: > http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/blog/nick/how_should_i_react_zegultahe_baidarka > I'd be interested in getting some feedback. Am I over or under reacting? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What precipitated my response was reading my own words in the Tahe/Zegul marketing literature. It is used in their ad on the inside back cover of Sea Kayaker and in the design statement prefacing the review as well as everywhere else the kayak is described. In the ad 7 out of the 10 sentences are copied from my website. They have been edited, but only slightly and they added some new sentences. One interesting thing is the sentence "The advantage of this shape is at the waterline the lower jaw can be narrow and sharp, giving a fine entry into to the water for good efficiency, while higher up the upper jaw can be full and wide for high buoyancy to lift the bow over waves." does not even apply to their design. There is no bifurcation, and the upper half is not "full and wide". I was discussing the original boats in the context where I wrote these words. In my design I did try to maintain those characteristics but they didn't carry over into the Zegul boat. Personally, I don't think my boat looks like a baidarka and I am very careful not to call it one. I say it was inspired by baidarkas and I point out in the first line of the description of my boat what boat I used as an inspiration. I also give away plans for that baidarka for free to anyone who wants to actually build a baidarka: http://bit.ly/jMT0TV As an unapologetic borrower of design ideas, I won't complain when others find inspiration in my work. To call a boat that is so clearly based on my non-baidarka a "baidarka" is a big stretch. There is very little "baidarka-ness" left. The bow horn is a bit baidarka-like as is the slight hollow running down the side of the bow, but otherwise it is just a nice reinterpretation of my design. It even sounds like they read some of my own critiques of my design and may have made some improvements. All that said, it is a fine looking boat in its own right. It is unusual and striking. Not as unusual as they would lead you to believe, but still quite nice in its own way. I am pleased that someone has found inspiration in my design and would appreciate some acknowledgment, and importantly, I think it appropriate for them to stop using my words to describe their boat. Nick On Jun 30, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > My first reaction to the Tahe Baidarka was that it didn't look much like a baidarka to me. But I'm certainly no expert. My first reaction to Nick's post was, "Damn! Someone copied someone else's design!"; as if this had never happened before. I've certainly listened to enough stories by kayak designers to understand that this is not at all uncommon. It's even common to have the company that contracted to build a design subsequently copy it and market an almost-identical (looking) kayak with a different name. And I know there is a certain amount of acrimony over this. > > But I read Nick's blog and then I read the wording he quotes; some of which is, word-for-word, Nick's description of his design philosophy presented as their design philosophy. It's hard for me to believe that this is coincidence. Mind you, not every word in their "designer's statement in Sea Kayaker is identical, but it seems to me that something like, "As kayak designer Nick Schade has said...." might have been appropriate. > > I'm convinced that the folks at Tahe have at least read Nick's blog about his design. Whether or not their design is a take-off of his I'll leave to the folks who understand designs better than I do. > > Craig > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: > I noticed a distinct similarity between the Zegul Baidarka reviewed in the recent issue of Sea Kayaker Magazine and one of my designs. I've blogged my reaction to that similarity: http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/blog/nick/how_should_i_react_zegult ahe_baidarka > I'd be interested in getting some feedback. Am I over or under reacting? > Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dear Nick and all, Probably the most important lesson I've learned in life is to give credit and acknowledgement where due--- and even a little where it isn't. I can't think of much worse than having one's intellectual property lifted and presented as another's original design. It speaks to such a low ethic and desperate insecurity. Permission is the easiest thing in the world to ask for, and it very often gets a favorable response-- Permission is the sincerest form of flattery, not copying. It would appear that Tahe/Zegul owes you a formal apology, ideally in SK mag. Best, Harvey --- On Thu, 6/30/11, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: From: Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] My Reaction to the Zegul Baidarka To: "Craig Jungers" <crjungers_at_gmail.com> Cc: "Paddlewise Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Date: Thursday, June 30, 2011, 9:26 AM What precipitated my response was reading my own words in the Tahe/Zegul marketing literature. It is used in their ad on the inside back cover of Sea Kayaker and in the design statement prefacing the review as well as everywhere else the kayak is described. In the ad 7 out of the 10 sentences are copied from my website. They have been edited, but only slightly and they added some new sentences. One interesting thing is the sentence "The advantage of this shape is at the waterline the lower jaw can be narrow and sharp, giving a fine entry into to the water for good efficiency, while higher up the upper jaw can be full and wide for high buoyancy to lift the bow over waves." does not even apply to their design. There is no bifurcation, and the upper half is not "full and wide". I was discussing the original boats in the context where I wrote these words. In my design I did try to maintain those characteristics but they didn't carry over into the Zegul boat. Personally, I don't think my boat looks like a baidarka and I am very careful not to call it one. I say it was inspired by baidarkas and I point out in the first line of the description of my boat what boat I used as an inspiration. I also give away plans for that baidarka for free to anyone who wants to actually build a baidarka: http://bit.ly/jMT0TV As an unapologetic borrower of design ideas, I won't complain when others find inspiration in my work. To call a boat that is so clearly based on my non-baidarka a "baidarka" is a big stretch. There is very little "baidarka-ness" left. The bow horn is a bit baidarka-like as is the slight hollow running down the side of the bow, but otherwise it is just a nice reinterpretation of my design. It even sounds like they read some of my own critiques of my design and may have made some improvements. All that said, it is a fine looking boat in its own right. It is unusual and striking. Not as unusual as they would lead you to believe, but still quite nice in its own way. I am pleased that someone has found inspiration in my design and would appreciate some acknowledgment, and importantly, I think it appropriate for them to stop using my words to describe their boat. Nick On Jun 30, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > My first reaction to the Tahe Baidarka was that it didn't look much like a baidarka to me. But I'm certainly no expert. My first reaction to Nick's post was, "Damn! Someone copied someone else's design!"; as if this had never happened before. I've certainly listened to enough stories by kayak designers to understand that this is not at all uncommon. It's even common to have the company that contracted to build a design subsequently copy it and market an almost-identical (looking) kayak with a different name. And I know there is a certain amount of acrimony over this. > > But I read Nick's blog and then I read the wording he quotes; some of which is, word-for-word, Nick's description of his design philosophy presented as their design philosophy. It's hard for me to believe that this is coincidence. Mind you, not every word in their "designer's statement in Sea Kayaker is identical, but it seems to me that something like, "As kayak designer Nick Schade has said...." might have been appropriate. > > I'm convinced that the folks at Tahe have at least read Nick's blog about his design. Whether or not their design is a take-off of his I'll leave to the folks who understand designs better than I do. > > Craig > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Nick Schade <nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> wrote: > I noticed a distinct similarity between the Zegul Baidarka reviewed in the recent issue of Sea Kayaker Magazine and one of my designs. I've blogged my reaction to that similarity: http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/blog/nick/how_should_i_react_zegult ahe_baidarka > I'd be interested in getting some feedback. Am I over or under reacting? > Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree. Harvey has nailed it... to lift intellectual property and quotes, is unethical and Steve deserves an apology/acknowledgement from Tahe/Zegul and it should appear in Sea Kayaker. Sorry this happened to you, Steve :-/ I hope they make it right by you and by the readers of Sea Kayaker. Jackie Harvey Golden wrote: >Dear Nick and all, Probably the most important lesson I've learned in life is >to give credit and acknowledgement where due--- and even a little where it >isn't. I can't think of much worse than having one's intellectual property >lifted and presented as another's original design. It speaks to such a low >ethic and desperate insecurity. > > ........... >On Jun 30, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > > .......... >>I'm convinced that the folks at Tahe have at least read Nick's blog about >> >> >his design. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
nick, yep looks like they "borrowed" not only your design but your words also. Sad that they didn't give you credit. In my business when one pastor uses a section of another pastor's sermon he/she is supposed to give the other pastor credit. Sadly too many plagiarize. you are owed an apology but I would not hold my breath waiting for it. yours Bob On 6/30/2011 5:01 AM, Nick Schade wrote: > I noticed a distinct similarity between the Zegul Baidarka reviewed in the recent issue of Sea Kayaker Magazine and one of my designs. I've blogged my reaction to that similarity: http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/blog/nick/how_should_i_react_zegultahe_baidarka > I'd be interested in getting some feedback. Am I over or under reacting? > > Nick Schade *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:55 PDT