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From: Michael Orchard <mspadorchard_at_comcast.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Idea diving kayak?
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 09:02:58 -0700
Main point:

Is there an ideal diving kayak.  One that is light wt, has a seaworthy hull, 
sit on top boat, efficient to paddle and move through the water, and has 
space to store the usual judicious amount of necessary gear:  tanks, wt 
belts, regulator, an anchor system, bc device, etc.  Plastic tub style boats 
don't cut it... and are really not all that interesting, or fun to paddle 
imho.

Background of my interest:

In the old days... ie early 70s, I used to dive with an inner tube, and use 
one tank in a day, and mostly snorkeling to assure the best use of that 
tank.

I did come across two fellow divers who had fiberglass sots with all the 
above, and were quite good in the water... but I have yet so see something 
like that for sale anyway, esp now that I have an interest in buying such a 
product.

After eventually putting diving aside due to costs and time issue, I 
eventually started paddling... ww, then sea kayaks... and now, esp since I 
have two boys who are interested in diving... would like to find a way to 
combine the two interests, and slowing getting my boys interesting in 
paddling as they dive... since the have not gotten the bug of sea paddling. 
I suspect a dual purpose boat would reallly snag them... and eventually turn 
them into paddlers, while making diving more interesting to them, and me. (I 
am not really all the interested in diving anymore.... but would do it with 
my boys.)

Thanks...

Mike Orchard
Vancouver, Washington
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From: <mjkory_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Idea diving kayak?
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 16:18:37 -0400 (EDT)
Check out this link for information on kayak diving. I bought this book about
10 years ago from Sports Chalet, and I'm suprised to see it is still
available.
?
Mike Kory
?
http://www.kayakdiving.com/




-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Orchard &lt;mspadorchard_at_comcast.net&gt;
To: PaddleWise &lt;PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net&gt;
Sent: Sat, Oct 29, 2011 9:03 am
Subject: [Paddlewise] Idea diving kayak?




Main point:

Is there an ideal diving kayak.  One that is light wt, has a seaworthy hull,
sit on top boat, efficient to paddle and move through the water, and has
space to store the usual judicious amount of necessary gear:  tanks, wt
belts, regulator, an anchor system, bc device, etc.  Plastic tub style boats
don't cut it... and are really not all that interesting, or fun to paddle
imho.

Background of my interest:

In the old days... ie early 70s, I used to dive with an inner tube, and use
one tank in a day, and mostly snorkeling to assure the best use of that
tank.

I did come across two fellow divers who had fiberglass sots with all the
above, and were quite good in the water... but I have yet so see something
like that for sale anyway, esp now that I have an interest in buying such a
product.

After eventually putting diving aside due to costs and time issue, I
eventually started paddling... ww, then sea kayaks... and now, esp since I
have two boys who are interested in diving... would like to find a way to
combine the two interests, and slowing getting my boys interesting in
paddling as they dive... since the have not gotten the bug of sea paddling.
I suspect a dual purpose boat would reallly snag them... and eventually turn
them into paddlers, while making diving more interesting to them, and me. (I
am not really all the interested in diving anymore.... but would do it with
my boys.)

Thanks...

Mike Orchard
Vancouver, Washington
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Idea diving kayak?
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 10:16:20 -0700
I inexplicably received a "May, 2011" issue of Canoe and Kayak Magazine
which has some reviews of "Big Water Fishing Kayaks" in it. I have a
subscription to the magazine (along with their companion "Bike Magazine")
and like it but I can't figure out why I got a May issue in November. Oh,
well.

If you run across it (their "2011 Paddle Guide") you might like to read the
reviews. One is Ocean Kayaks Trident Ultra 4.7 which they seem to like.

If I were diving or fishing regularly anywhere in the Pacific Northwest I
would absolutely be in a plastic SOT kayak in a drysuit with a Kokatat
SeaOh2 (a PFD you can also inflate). With an extra paddle. And a VHF.

Craig Jungers
Moses Lake, WA
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From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Idea diving kayak?
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 11:10:06 -0700
Mike,

When I read your email I immediately thought of Ocean Kayaks which is a
premier manufacturer of fishing kayaks... but their web site is, hands down,
the worst I've ever seen. So I did some more searching and found a great web
page describing diving from SOT kayaks:
http://www.scubadiving.com/training/basic-skills/kayak-diving which seems
pretty interesting.

A Google search for "dive kayak" brought up the X-factor dive/fishing kayak
which is another SOT in poly that seems pretty useful.

Ocean Kayaks are pretty popular among kayak fishing folks and often find
their way to craigslist and eBay so you might want to keep a lookout for
those.

In order to search craigslist for something you can search several areas at
one time with searchtempest.com ... it also comes up with some eBay results
too.

My wife and I used to dive a lot... mostly snorkling but we were both
certified for SCUBA 25 years ago and did it a lot. I still prefer snorkling
on a nice reef in warm water but not much of that around here.

Good luck,
Craig Jungers
www.nwkayaking.net
www.bigboxbikes.com

On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 9:02 AM, Michael Orchard
<mspadorchard_at_comcast.net>wrote:

> Is there an ideal diving kayak.  One that is light wt, has a seaworthy
> hull, sit on top boat, efficient to paddle and move through the water, and
> has space to store the usual judicious amount of necessary gear:  tanks, wt
> belts, regulator, an anchor system, bc device, etc.  Plastic tub style boats
> don't cut it... and are really not all that interesting, or fun to paddle
> imho.
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From: Michael Orchard <mspadorchard_at_comcast.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Idea diving kayak?
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 11:49:33 -0700
thanks Craig.... I have seen Ocean kayaks... they seem to be everywhere... and
to my way of thinking, in comparison to a good real sea going yak... are
lacking a great deal.  They are plenty on the used market... but don't seem to
be well designed.  To my limitted experience with them, based on one paddle,
and looking at some of their boats I did not paddle.. their hulls are very
inefficient.

I have not looked for a couple of years... but did find one boat that was at
one time being made on the east coast, out of fiberglass... and designed by a
marine boat architect,  whose name I don't recall.  They may have been the
exact boat I experienced once on Bodega Bay.

As far as I can tell... those fiberglass boats are out of production, and the
designer moved on the sailboats or some other boat designing.

http://www.paddling.net/buyersguide/showBoat.html?boatID=1632&boattype=Kayaks

Hurricane Kayak I think... may have been the name of the original boat
company... but it is not in anyway the original... to my way of thinking it
should be modest weight, and longer like a real sea kayak... and have and
efficient hull shape, with reasonable set up for the gear.

Don't think the heavy plastic boats I have seen are all that well designed in
any aspect.. except cost.

Thanks...

M.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Craig Jungers
  Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Idea diving kayak?

  When I read your email I immediately thought of Ocean Kayaks which is a
premier manufacturer of fishing kayaks... but their web site is, hands down,
the worst I've ever seen. So I did some more searching and found a great web
page describing diving from SOT kayaks:
http://www.scubadiving.com/training/basic-skills/kayak-diving which seems
pretty interesting.

  A Google search for "dive kayak" brought up the X-factor dive/fishing kayak
which is another SOT in poly that seems pretty useful.
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From: MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Idea diving kayak?
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 21:04:36 -0800
Michael Orchard  wrote:

>>>>>>>>thanks Craig.... I have seen Ocean kayaks... they seem to be
everywhere... and
to my way of thinking, in comparison to a good real sea going yak... are
lacking a great deal. They are plenty on the used market... but don't seem to
be well designed. To my limitted experience with them, based on one paddle,
and looking at some of their boats I did not paddle.. their hulls are very
inefficient.

I have not looked for a couple of years... but did find one boat that was at
one time being made on the east coast, out of fiberglass... and designed by a
marine boat architect, whose name I don't recall. They may have been the
exact boat I experienced once on Bodega Bay.

As far as I can tell... those fiberglass boats are out of production, and the
designer moved on the sailboats or some other boat designing......<<<<<


Michael, I think you were describing the HOPonTOP kayak designed by Naval
Architect (who was already a sailboat designer, having something to do with an
America's Cup boat, before designing the HOPonTOP) Paul Cronin. The original
version was fiberglass and was 16 feet long by 28.125" wide. Later on, the
company changed its name so that model became the Heritage Kayaks Nomad (and a
plastic version with the same name was also made). I paddled the fiberglass
one back in January 1997 when it first came out. Sea Kayaker magazine also did
a review of it not too much later. I thought it had some nice features and was
well made. It had a good balance between tracking and turning and also very
little weather helm in side winds.  Its hull design was very much like the
Ocean Kayaks Scupper though, with the central rounded tube on an otherwise
flat bottom. I timed it for top speed and it was much slower that most other
kayaks I had tested. It took me 44 seconds to sprint down the dock near my
shop (just south of NWOC). The average of 147 North American sea kayaks I've
sprint tested over the same course is a hair over 38 seconds. Given it was
January, we should probably deduct a couple of seconds from its time because
cold water is stickier at about the rate of 2.5% for each 10 degrees F. I
recall that in small chop the waves would get trapped in the pocket near the
bow between the flat bottom raising up out of the water and the central tube
and make a constant slap-slap-slap sound when moving forward. I found that
quite annoying.

In 1999 Heritage came out with an 18' long by 26" wide fiberglass sit-on-top
called the Expedition XL. Perhaps that is the one you tried. I've never seen
one of those so know nothing of its hull shape. I can tell you that if most of
that length and width is on the water, that even if the hull is more ship
shaped a kayak that long and wide is going to feel pretty sluggish from all
that friction.

Speaking of the Scupper, back in the late 1980's I was in a fun kayak race
near Anacortes and recall that the Ocean Kayaks Scupper designer, Tim Niemier,
was one of the earliest finishers in his 14' long by 26" wide Scupper kayak.
Since the Scupper looked to me like it had a lot of unnecessary wetted surface
and was on the short side as well, I concluded that Tim must be a very strong
paddler indeed. Unfortunately, I've never paddled one when I was near my
sprint test course. Tim's original kayak, the Mark I (14'), from way back in
1971 was fiberglass. He sold a Mark II (13') and Mark III (16') in fiberlass
under the name Ocean Kayaks Ltd when he lived in CA. I've never seen any of
those but understand their hulls were much like a Scupper's. Tim originally
named the Scupper the Coaster, Luckily I heard about it early enough I could
tell him that that name was already taken before he got too many brochures
printed that way.

Below are some notes on Heritage Kayaks from the spreadsheet I keep
information on kayaks in:

HERITAGE KAYAKS (started as: HOPonTOP) (HKW):Paul Cronin N.A.& pres. (1997)
55 Ballou Blvd., Bristol, RI  02809  (401)253-3408 (was 0401)
fax:(401)254-6994  www.heritagekayaks.com  info_at_heritagekayaks.com
founder/CEO:Hol Whitney)(before 2000 was Heritage BoatWorks, Inc., 40 Grove
St. Suite 320, Wellesley, MA  02181   brochure:(800)430-0998 old
phone:(781)237-1114  old fax:(781)235-1348 old e-mail:hhotkyks_at_aol.com)
(uscg-Heritage Kayaks, Heritage Boatworks Inc, 40 Grove St., Suite 320,
Wellesley, MA  02181, (781)237-1114, registered 5/98, factory: 55 Ballou Blvd.
etc.--uscg)(became part of LEGACY PADDLESPORTS and by 2007 merged with LIQUID
LOGIC
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From: Kirk Olsen <kork4_at_cluemail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Idea diving kayak?
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:36:13 -0500
I had a chance to demo the whole hop-on-top line at a demo day. 
Terrific boats.

The thigh straps were great the boats rolled easily, full lean turns
with the hull at about 70 degrees were possible.

The hull shape, at least on the 18', was intriguing.  The shape at the
waterline was similar to a current design speedster - parabolic/rounded
arch.
Above the water line the boat flared out at a slight angle, maybe 10
degrees off being parallel to the surface of the water, so that the boat
had about a 17" waterline but a wider beam.  Stability was very good.

A local rental place still has a half dozen of the fiberglass 14 and 16
footers.  He would love to get more as
they make good rentals - a sit on top that's easy to repair.

Kirk

On Monday, November 07, 2011 9:04 PM, "MATT MARINER BROZE"
<marinerkayaks_at_msn.com> wrote:
> 
> I have not looked for a couple of years... but did find one boat that was
> at
> one time being made on the east coast, out of fiberglass... and designed
> by a
> marine boat architect, whose name I don't recall. They may have been the
> exact boat I experienced once on Bodega Bay.
> 
> As far as I can tell... those fiberglass boats are out of production, and
> the
> designer moved on the sailboats or some other boat designing......<<<<<
> 
> 
> Michael, I think you were describing the HOPonTOP kayak designed by Naval
> Architect (who was already a sailboat designer, having something to do
> with an
> America's Cup boat, before designing the HOPonTOP) Paul Cronin. 
-- 
  Kirk Olsen
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From: Bill O'Brien <obrien.murphy_at_gmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Idea diving kayak?
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 23:27:31 -0800
If I were to dive out of a kayak in a serious boat that could handle ocean
conditions and paddle efficiently, I'd look at Kazkasi kayaks out of S.
Africa and imported to Florida.

http://kaskazi.co.za/kayaks/index.shtml

They make a number of fiberglass SOT's. including a diving/fishing one
called Dorado II which has a tank well and a large storage compartment
accessed by a hatch located between the lower legs. It is just under 16ft.
and about 25in wide.

  Another promising boat is Paddleyak's Kingfisher.  I looks good with  a
fine entry topped by a mild bow foil, a bit like a lifeguard spec surfski.
 Wouldn't you know it's another S. African boat.  The back has a well
designed to fit a cooler or fishing crate, so it may not be good for diving
tanks.

There are very few fiberglass SOTs outside of surfskis.  Hop-on-Top turned
into Heritage Kayaks, which I believe was later sold.  They discontinued
fiberglass kayaks, making a plastic version of their 16 ft. Nomad.  They
eventually dropped this model.  We have the fiberglass Nomad which sits the
paddler too high and has a rear hatch instead of a tank well.  It's
actually quite good in the ocean and surf as long as one is not in high
winds.

A plastic one to consider is RTM's Midway.  RTM is a French company that
bought the molds from Ocean Kayak who made the most popular fishing/diving
SOT's for years.  I have RTM's Disco which is a few inches shorter than the
Midway and has a lot of rocker.  I've taken it the ocean off Oregon and
actually had no problem keeping up with people in longer British style
fiberglass boats.  It's a mystery to me how this can be so fast.  The
Midway has a different underwater profile with sharp rales rather than
rounded with some V profiling.  It's a little small to dive from, so I
think the Midway would be better.

Bill O'Brien
Corvallis, OR

On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 9:02 AM, Michael Orchard
<mspadorchard_at_comcast.net>wrote:

> Main point:
>
> Is there an ideal diving kayak.  One that is light wt, has a seaworthy
> hull, sit on top boat, efficient to paddle and move through the water, and
> has space to store the usual judicious amount of necessary gear:  tanks, wt
> belts, regulator, an anchor system, bc device, etc.  Plastic tub style
> boats don't cut it... and are really not all that interesting, or fun to
> paddle imho.
>
> Background of my interest:
>
> In the old days... ie early 70s, I used to dive with an inner tube, and
> use one tank in a day, and mostly snorkeling to assure the best use of that
> tank.
>
> I did come across two fellow divers who had fiberglass sots with all the
> above, and were quite good in the water... but I have yet so see something
> like that for sale anyway, esp now that I have an interest in buying such a
> product.
>
> After eventually putting diving aside due to costs and time issue, I
> eventually started paddling... ww, then sea kayaks... and now, esp since I
> have two boys who are interested in diving... would like to find a way to
> combine the two interests, and slowing getting my boys interesting in
> paddling as they dive... since the have not gotten the bug of sea paddling.
> I suspect a dual purpose boat would reallly snag them... and eventually
> turn them into paddlers, while making diving more interesting to them, and
> me. (I am not really all the interested in diving anymore.... but would do
> it with my boys.)
>
> Thanks...
>
> Mike Orchard
> Vancouver, Washington
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