RE: [Paddlewise] Old Mariner Clone?

Mark Sanders  wrote:

>>>>>>>>Saw this Northwest Escape kayak for sale in San Diego and thought it
looked a bit like a Mariner. Were they one of the companies "borrowing"
from Mariner? Perhaps you Mariner owners will tell me they don't really
look the same. Doesn't seem to have the rocker of my friends Mariners,
just a hint of the lines.
Don't get any real Mariners for sale in my neck of the woods.

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/ssd/sgd/3217888041.html

Just wondering...<<<<<<<

Some of the story of the Escape can be found on the Model History page of our
website www.marinerkayaks.com.

The reason there is a NW Kayaks Escape is because the owner, of what later
became NWK, built our original Mariner hulls and decks in his garage back in
1981 (after we built the first five) and wanted to make a more stable, good
handling, sea kayak to sell wholesale. We worked out an agreement that he (the
future NWK owner) would make the mold from a rough plug that we designed and
provided to him and he would produce kayaks for sale from it. We would get
royalties and retained the rights to buy unfinished Escapes (and finish them
ourselves with the outfitting we wanted) and sell them ourselves as Mariner
Escapes. It became a very popular sea kayak back then, we were soon six months
back ordered, NW Kayaks made enough profit to being well on its way to being
bigger company. Because of the agreement, we soon ended up competing with REI,
The Swallows Nest, and White-Water Sports, all selling NWK versions of the
Escape retail in Seattle within a few miles from us. Not an enviable position.
While NWK's built all the Mariner hulls and decks (or more after we opened a
retail store in 1987) until 1999 we had a different agreement that at first
gave us exclusive rights to sell in WA and OR and gave NWK the ability to
wholesale their versions outside that area. By 1990 we had ended the agreement
allowing the original NWK's owner to wholesale our kayak models because of the
corner cutting NWK was doing with the wholesale kayaks that we never got to
see, but certainly often heard about. Those wholesale kayaks were hurting our
reputation for quality. While there were many reasons to end that agreement,
such as our own customers having to wait too long to get a kayak from the
molds, and several quality issues, gluing in the coamings on the wholesale
Mariner's (that all later all broke out) rather than fiberglassing them in
place like we had always done was the last straw. And this was after I
specifically told the owner not to glue in the cockpit coamings in Mariner
kayak models, at least until he had at a years experience with his own kayaks
glued in cockpit rims and had no troubles, and then he could ask me about it
again.

NWK built and seamed together all the Escape hulls (but just the hull and
decks of our other models which we finished from there, until we opened a
store in 1987). While the Escape didn't need a rudder (especially with the
sliding seat version) NWK added a rather clunky rudder to the wholesale
Escapes. Only the earliest wholesale NWK Escapes had a sliding seat. NWK
couldn't seem to make the sliding seats so they wouldn't break or keep the
tracks from coming unglued, even though I would show them exactly what had to
be done (and we weren't having any trouble at all that way ourselves). As a
result, we had to stop them from selling sliding seat versions to protect our
reputation for quality. Several other manufacturers at the time started
putting in tracks in to hold their seats down (and allow it to be
removable--but never with the footpedals attached to make it instantly
adjustable) and I was put in the unenviable position of having to tell my
competitors the best way to prepare and glue down the seat tracks in order
that their kayaks seat tracks coming unglued didn't hurt our company's
reputation (even though we never had any problems that way).

The original Escape plug that we provided to NWK had a lot more rocker than
the actual Escapes had. We made that plug to at first be a kayak we could test
paddle and modify until it was just the way we wanted it. Among other
modifications to the original design, I filled in a lot more volume at the
sides near the bow (below the extreme bow flare) so that the buoyancy of the
bow would be more progressive, rather than sink quickly to the flare and then
stop suddenly (and also to prevent the original radical bow flare from
throwing more spray around when it splashed down on the water's surface). NWK
smoothed up the plug in order to make the molds from it and put a very dark
final smoothing finish on the plug. The plug was fairly lightweight and had
the bulkheads (every 30cm) removed for test paddling and to make the plug
easier to smooth with a long board (of sandpaper--without taking more material
off at the hard bulkhead contact areas). The combination of the extra filer
material at the bow, the light bulkheadless plug, and the dark finish (having
been placed out in the hot summer sun by NWK), resulted in the bow rocker
being reduced a lot by the time the molds had been made from the plug. So the
final Escape was not quite what we had designed, but it was still a great
kayak. It had a huge secondary stability (and too much initial stability with
a gear load for my tastes--making it too much work to lean to turn--which it
would do beautifully when empty) combined with a narrow waterline kayak that
won a lot of kayak races back in the 1980's against longer and much narrower
kayaks. The length of the Escape is 16-7 (rather than 17' in the
advertisement--unless you count the rudder). $299 sounds like a fantastic
price for someone who wants a very stable and seakindly kayak, most suitable
for a large, or big footed paddler, most have been going for closer to $1000.
The Mariner XL (1985) replaced the Escape in our line except for especially
large or big footed paddlers. The Max (a modified XL) replaced the XL in our
line in 1992.

NWK was our builder and knew exactly how many of each model we were selling
(at one time anyway, we were selling retail about 1/4 of all the kayaks
(theirs and ours) that NWK built). Many of the NWK models were inspired, or in
some cases even more than that) by Mariner models. At one point the owner,
when sitting on a panel of kayak designers, that had all been asked the
question as to how they designed their kayaks, said something very like: Matt
and Cam are the best kayak designers. I look at what they do, and then I do
like that. The Mariner II likely inspired the NWK Discover and Synergy. They
were pretty nice kayaks. The Coaster imitation, the Sportee (that CCK demanded
after they could no longer buy NWK Coasters) had all the same major
dimensions, but was a very poor imitation (and also a flop). The NWK Esprit
was carved from a block of expanding foam that had been formed in Escape
molds. I didn't learn those details for several years, but I was pretty sure
the Esprit had come directly from the slightly large Escape or the slightly
smaller Mariner Sprite somehow. The Seaworthy Kayak's Enatai was another kayak
inspired by the Escape (but it wasn't a copy).

There was a Coaster for sale in San Diego recently by its second owner. The
original owner was someone who has been on Paddlewise.
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