I was just reading an article about Shannon Christy who died in a river accident back in July and it made me think of a couple things I thought I'd bring up. Namely, the size of her helmet and the baggyness of her drysuit! I don't paddle rivers and I don't own a drysuit, so I'm no expert on the subject, but I don't like the design on this helmet. It seems to me the built in flare around the whole helmet and especially the hard visor could create a lot of drag in the hydraulics of the river. In the video posted with the story, the helmet she's wearing looks even bigger than this one here. I know just in surfing small waves that my helmet can get discombobulated in a drop and it seems much more form fitted than this one and also has a floppy material type visor. Also, while wearing a paddling jacket in the surf yesterday, I was bothered by the way the extra fabric seemed to impede my movement. I thought that if I wore a jacket often, I'd want some way to tighten the loose material along my arms, like some type of gaiter. I can see that that might give you more protection from the rocks, but is there a cost to it and couldn't there be an easier way? I hate to even think of the hydraulic forces she had to endure, but it seems to me these factors coundn't have helped. Drysuits are great for saving you from hypothermia, but what about the other issues out on the water. Thought it worthy a discussion. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2442083/Extreme-kayaker-Shannon-Christy-killed-2-days-60-Minutes-Sports-profile.html Mark Sanders *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Maybe her petite size made for the appearance of gear too large simply because it was Sent from my iPad > On Oct 2, 2013, at 11:45 PM, Mark Sanders <marksanders_at_sandmarks.net> wrote: > > I was just reading an article about Shannon Christy who died in a river > accident back in July and it made me think of a couple things I thought > I'd bring up. Namely, the size of her helmet and the baggyness of her > drysuit! I don't paddle rivers and I don't own a drysuit, so I'm no > expert on the subject, but I don't like the design on this helmet. It > seems to me the built in flare around the whole helmet and especially > the hard visor could create a lot of drag in the hydraulics of the > river. In the video posted with the story, the helmet she's wearing > looks even bigger than this one here. I know just in surfing small waves > that my helmet can get discombobulated in a drop and it seems much more > form fitted than this one and also has a floppy material type visor. > Also, while wearing a paddling jacket in the surf yesterday, I was > bothered by the way the extra fabric seemed to impede my movement. I > thought that if I wore a jacket often, I'd want some way to tighten the > loose material along my arms, like some type of gaiter. I can see that > that might give you more protection from the rocks, but is there a cost > to it and couldn't there be an easier way? I hate to even think of the > hydraulic forces she had to endure, but it seems to me these factors > coundn't have helped. Drysuits are great for saving you from > hypothermia, but what about the other issues out on the water. Thought > it worthy a discussion. > > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2442083/Extreme-kayaker-Shannon-Christy-killed-2-days-60-Minutes-Sports-profile.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I once failed to roll on the first try because my full brim hat, that was strapped under my chin to keep it from blowing off, acted like a bucket once I lifted my head out of the water. One of the pictures of the victim made me think that the flared helmet could certainly act like a bucket I've never had any trouble with baggy sleeves, but when I first got a drysuit I wasn't squeezing enough air out of it when I put it on. the air in it acted like multiple PFD's, in that, when I was knocked over in the surf my torso would be floated over to one side. No problem if that was the side I wanted to roll up on. If it wasn't I would find myself in a catch 22 situation. While I could roll on either side, the catch was that in the process of moving my paddle to roll on the other side I would end up also flipping my torso over to the wrong side again, and again, and again. Each time I tried to switch sides with the paddle my torso would switch sides to the new wrong side as well. I solved the problem by putting two life jackets on in the practice pool and working on finding a solution. After many failed attempts in the deep end of the pool I found myself in the shallow end of the pool where I couldn't reach the paddle downward to try to scull myself over to the other side like i had been trying. The solution turned out to be quite simple. If you find yourself floated up on the wrong side from how you are set up to roll simply take a short paddle stroke across the deck with the blade perpendicular to the deck (from the start of the screw roll position). That flips your body over so it floats up on the other side from where it was. Next feather your paddle and slip it back under your deck while keeping the blade parallel to your deck. That puts you back in the roll start position on the side where it will be especially easy to roll because you are floating on the surface on that side already. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've forgotten what the occasion was some years ago, but I remember searching for a rescue drysuit in a SAR catalog and finding one with a series of stiff rings imbedded in the legs. Evidently there had been problems in the past with a person getting flipped upside down with too much air unburped in the suit. It would go to the legs and keep him permanently upside and unable to get his head to the surface. The rings supposedly helped prevent that. I had never heard of this before and have yet to come across it. Regarding the helmet, I remember Charlie Walbridge holding forth years ago on what should not be design elements in a whitewater helmet. Alas, many of them have crept back into modern designs... Joe P. -----Original Message----- >From: MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com> >Sent: Oct 4, 2013 12:43 AM >To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> >Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] River Death from July > >I once failed to roll on the first try because my full brim hat, that was >strapped under my chin to keep it from blowing off, acted like a bucket once I >lifted my head out of the water. One of the pictures of the victim made me >think that the flared helmet could certainly act like a bucket > >I've never had any trouble with baggy sleeves, but when I first got a drysuit >I wasn't squeezing enough air out of it when I put it on. the air in it acted >like multiple PFD's, in that, when I was knocked over in the surf my torso >would be floated over to one side. No problem if that was the side I wanted to >roll up on. If it wasn't I would find myself in a catch 22 situation. While I >could roll on either side, the catch was that in the process of moving my >paddle to roll on the other side I would end up also flipping my torso over to >the wrong side again, and again, and again. Each time I tried to switch sides >with the paddle my torso would switch sides to the new wrong side as well. > >I solved the problem by putting two life jackets on in the practice pool and >working on finding a solution. After many failed attempts in the deep end of >the pool I found myself in the shallow end of the pool where I couldn't reach >the paddle downward to try to scull myself over to the other side like i had >been trying. The solution turned out to be quite simple. If you find yourself >floated up on the wrong side from how you are set up to roll simply take a >short paddle stroke across the deck with the blade perpendicular to the deck >(from the start of the screw roll position). That flips your body over so it >floats up on the other side from where it was. Next feather your paddle and >slip it back under your deck while keeping the blade parallel to your deck. >That puts you back in the roll start position on the side where it will be >especially easy to roll because you are floating on the surface on that side >already. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have had trouble wet exiting from a small cockpit kayak, when the women's relief zipper on my suit was catching on both sides of the cockpit. This was only when I hadn't burped my suit very well, and was caused by an expansion of the seat area with the air when capsized (upside down). I learned to twist so one hip came out of the cockpit first. Finally I ended up getting a different drysuit with NO women's relief zipper. Pam in Washington State -----Original Message----- From: Joe P. <jpylka_at_earthlink.net> To: MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>; Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Fri, Oct 4, 2013 10:58 am Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] River Death from July I've forgotten what the occasion was some years ago, but I remember earching for a rescue drysuit in a SAR catalog and finding one with series of stiff rings imbedded in the legs. Evidently there had been roblems in the past with a person getting flipped upside down with too uch air unburped in the suit. It would go to the legs and keep him ermanently upside and unable to get his head to the surface. The rings upposedly helped prevent that. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A Seattle paddler caught the zipper pull at her waist in a vee-shaped notch where the seat joined the coaming and could not wet exit until she purposefully reversed and released the snag. B Setsuko made a lot of noise about this on West Coast Paddler, motivating the rext of us to look for similar snag opportunities. B All of us found some. B A prime area was footpegs, for the sandal-addicted. B Another was those wedge-shaped terminations on Chota bungee-laces. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR -------- Original message -------- >From pamvetdr_at_aol.com Date: 10/04/2013 12:13 PM (GMT-08:00) To jpylka_at_earthlink.net,paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject Re: [Paddlewise] River Death from July I have had trouble wet exiting from a small cockpit kayak, when the women's relief zipper on my suit was catching on both sides of the cockpit. This was only when I hadn't burped my suit very well, and was caused by an expansion of the seat area with the air when capsized (upside down). I learned to twist so one hip came out of the cockpit first. Finally I ended up getting a different drysuit with NO women's relief zipper. B B B B B Pam in Washington State *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 11:45:26PM -0700, Mark Sanders wrote: > I was just reading an article about Shannon Christy who died in a river > accident back in July and it made me think of a couple things I thought > I'd bring up. Namely, the size of her helmet and the baggyness of her > drysuit! I'm puzzled by this: was she, in fact, wearing a drysuit when the accident happened? (Note: I'm not able to view the videos at the URL given later in your message, so my apologies if that's clear from context.) The Potomac in midsummer is like bath water. By July, it's uncomfortably warm, so much so that if you roll in it, there's no thermal cue that you're underwater. I'd think anyone wearing a drysuit or even just a drytop out there would be in serious danger of hyperthermia. ---rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The article shows pictures of her both with and without a jacket/drysuit, but I think she wasn't wearing it when she died. I wasn't really trying to implicate her gear in her death, as it seems the area she went over in it might not have mattered what she was wearing, but it made me think others might have had issues in the past they could speak to. Big helmets and baggy clothes might not seem to be too dangerous, but when you get into trouble the cumulative effects of little things might have a big impact. I think when you read a sad article like this one, you just start to look for answers and it seemed this was the place to ask them. Mark On 10/4/2013 12:54 PM, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > I'm puzzled by this: was she, in fact, wearing a drysuit when the > accident happened? (Note: I'm not able to view the videos at the > URL given later in your message, so my apologies if that's clear > from context.) > > The Potomac in midsummer is like bath water. By July, it's uncomfortably > warm, so much so that if you roll in it, there's no thermal cue that > you're underwater. I'd think anyone wearing a drysuit or even just > a drytop out there would be in serious danger of hyperthermia. > > ---rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 01:51:45PM -0700, Mark Sanders wrote: > I wasn't really trying to implicate her gear in her death, as it seems > the area she went over in it might not have mattered what she was > wearing, but it made me think others might have had issues in the > past they could speak to. Big helmets and baggy clothes might not > seem to be too dangerous, but when you get into trouble the > cumulative effects of little things might have a big impact. I think > when you read a sad article like this one, you just start to look > for answers and it seemed this was the place to ask them. Ah, understood. You're correct that the key was her location: with or without gear, clothing, or anything else, that's a horribly bad place to be, and survival is unlikely. And your point about cumulative effects is well-taken: many of the accident analyses carried out by Charlie Walbridge (who is the de facto keeper of incident reports here in the US) often show exactly that: several small things, none of which are particularly important, combine to create a significant cumulative effect. One of the things that he, and others, look for are commonalities: is a particular type or model of helmet consistently involved? Does a certain PFD design have a hidden liability? Does a particular boat type have an issue? One of things I've learned is that hydrodynamic drag matters, particularly when you're out of your boat (e.g., big helmet/baggy clothes, as you said). It's much easier for me to do swimming rescue drills in July when I have on a PFD and shorts; much more difficult to them in December with a drysuit; and always more difficult when wearing a sprayskirt. Add to this various combinations of other gear, drop the water temperature 40 degrees, and what's fun and easy midsummer is not so in winter. I'm much more careful now about what I choose to wear and when: of course there is no "right" choice, only the one that I guess will be "right" for that river on that day. ---rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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