One of the things that I've learned through group & solo, hiking, whitewater paddling and sea-kayaking is that while there can be safety provided by the group, one should never _rely_ on that group safety factor. If the conditions are such that I feel that I wouldn't want to paddle them by myself then I don't go. This is a style that works for me because I don't ordinarily take multi-day trips as part of a large group - I can definitely see that it could be problematic on a long group trip with bad conditions. After reading John Winter's description of their Labrador trip I was struck by the similarity of the group's decision to "not risk life to rescue someone" to the same principle that I learned years ago as a life guard - don't let an attempted rescue create _two_ victims. Each situation has to be judged when it occurs, the conditions and risks immediately assessed, and appropriate action taken. My instructors drilled into my head during several whitewater rescue courses that the first and most important rescue skill that you could ever have was that of "self-rescue". You're the one in the water having the bad time - you're the one with the absolutely greatest interest in your own survival. I'm not in any way downplaying the necessity of having good, _practiced_, rescue skills and having a sense of responsibility to the members of the group and even others that may not be a part of the group. These are qualities that I constantly strive to develop and that I look for in my paddling companions (along with a sense of humor and extra food!!<g>). David Seng / david_at_wainet.com Wostmann & Associates / phone - 907.586.6167 223 Seward St. / fax - 907.586.2996 Juneau, Alaska 99801 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Leander <overfall_at_ix.netcom.com> > > Interesting decision...although I don't think I could ever be comfortable > agreeing to that, for several reasons. Part of it is coming from a > background of things like boating, wildnerness camping and mountaineering, > in which we understood that we would render aid when needed, even to > strangers, and that it was everyone's responsibility to not only take care > of themselves, but to take care of the others, should they get into trouble. Hi Leander, I understand what you are saying. This was what I learned when I paddled with river kayakers. But I'm not sure it's a good lesson for sea kayakers (maybe even for river runners?)... the idea that it is everyone's responsibility to take care of others. This lesson might have serious consequences. When I first started sea kayaking some time, back, two other paddlers and I found ourselves in adverse weather conditions where we agreed to stay together on a four-mile crossing "for safety reasons." To make a long story short, the other two were paddling decked boats, I was paddling a sit-on-top (tub full of water) making my going rather slow. Conditions worsened and the other two panicked and took off. I found myself paddling alone for hours without proper equipment struggling through some mighty nasty stuff which I would never have chosen to paddle alone. I hear this happens a lot. My previous white water experience (along with fear and a major dose of raw anger) saw me through the incident. The lesson I learned from that episode is that real safety resides in yourself... *your* judgment skills and *your* paddling skills and always being prepared to paddle alone, even when paddling with a group. You never know what may happen. I never expected the two friends to panic and desert me. How could I have? We all learned the lesson as river runners that there would be someone there who would come to our aid if we got into trouble... the value in paddling in a group... ? Also, I'm not sure of John's complete story, yet, and I certainly don't know what was going on in their minds. One thing I've learned in these paddling lists is there are always things I can learn :-) Another point I've mulled over in my mind is that I'm not sure how different this would be than other sports where participants, once they are into the activity, are not able to come to the aid of their buddies. Such as sky diving, or hang gliding, or any number of competitive sports where participants do not expect their fellow participant (some being close friends) to come to their aid. > Sometimes folks would get into trouble without realizing it was > occuring...like gradually becoming hypothermic on a winter climb, for > instance. Usually it was someone other than the victim who picked up on > what was happening, and the group would take measures to reverse things > early on (often against the "I'm ok" protests of the one becoming > hypothermic). Then of course there was heat exhaustion, injuries, fatique, > or sometimes simply paralyzing fear (I really hate dealing with that one, > because you never really know what they'll do next). This all sort of goes back to the point John Winters made earlier about people assuming more risks for themselves when they believe they have a safety net. How would these individuals react if they were on their own? Why should they behave in such irresponsible ways and possibly endanger others? Some paddlers believe they are safer paddling alone than in a group. I've been on trips where I would have to agree with this philosophy. > But from the seakayaking point of view, if you lump it in with boating > in general, it is kind of the rule of the sea that you aid any boat in > trouble, if it is possible to render aid without sinking your own vessel. > If you can't render aid, then stand by, again if possible. Granted, these > traditions come from offshore sailing history, but I think this universal > comraderie, so to speak, is what one thing that makes boating special. It > also underlies a knowledge that in any battle with the sea, the ocean > wins...kind of maintains a healthy respect for the elements. Maybe to some, part of the challenge is testing their skills as many do in many physical activities which I don't understand at all but doesn't mean they don't get something from it :-) Like... I don't understand ramming cars into each other until there's only one left driveable. Sounds like LA freeways during the rainy season, to me... :-) > I would hate to have kayaking go the way of so much of our world, with > an "everyone for themselves, you're on your own" attitude. More > importantly, if someone traveling in my group died because the rest of us > couldn't be bothered to try saving them, I would probably never enjoy the > sport again. Not because someone died, but because no one tried to stop it. I would feel that way, also. That's why I don't think I would be a good candidate for such a challenge. It's a different type of group dynamics, though, and it appears that all participants agreed to go solo in John's situation. > If the conditions are so rough that you would be unable to assist > another kayaker, and you have a choice of launching or not, is it really > worth launching (kind of like would you climb a mountain in a blizzard)? Some do. I've read that frozen corpses of climbers are scattered about the top of Mt. Everest. Climbers pass them on the way to the top. Some know the risks and make the choice. Some make the choice and deny the risks. For those that climb the mountain in the blizzard, they are looking for a different experience than than the average climber, maybe? > If > you're already out there and things get dicey...well, in the > retrospectoscope, usually the situation could have been averted if we'd > done our homework beforehand, or been paying attention while out there > (which has never helped me in the middle of such a predicament). > A lot of folks feel that independence is an extremely important thing, > and that is true...but that changes in a group. I remember one very But what if everyone in the group, 100% of its members, agree that they are no longer a group and they are all independent? > independent hiker who liked to let less expert hikers tag along, but would > be concerned only with maintaining his schedule. He never saw when they > were pushed too far, even when they said they needed to rest. By the time > things got really bad, he would leave them behind to "go get help" and have > these really dramatic sagas getting help...but sometimes the people he left > behind died or had body parts amputated. I think the difference might be there was not an agreement among highly experienced hikers to proceed independently with proper skills to see them through. Maybe? > As expert as his skills in backcountry were, I do not consider him a > hero or even a save companion. So what does this have to do with kayaking? > I see the same process rearing its ugly head here...it's harder to render > aid on water than it is on land. Maybe because of that, it's more critical > to do so. I'm not sure what I see yet as I have never had the opportunity to read John's entire story. I'm hoping to learn something here that maybe I haven't thought of yet? But I don't get the impression that John Winters would proceed on such a trip without serious considerations. This is why I've been so interested in knowing more about the trip (rather than be left with Tim's incoherent rantings) and felt really frustrated because we could not explore it more on the other list. > I would be interested to know how others approach this issue. > Leander Yes, I think this could be a very interesting discussion. It might be hard for some to separate John's trip from incidents we've found ourselves in like the independent hiker you mention above. But I think there may be important and significant differences. This is what I am guessing until I learn more. I'm all ears...errr... eyeballs :-) Cheers, Jackie _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o \\ o o ` (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:44 PM 2/25/98 -0800, Jackie Fenton wrote: >Hi Leander, > >I understand what you are saying. This was what I learned when I paddled >with river kayakers. But I'm not sure it's a good lesson for sea kayakers >(maybe even for river runners?)... the idea that it is everyone's >responsibility to take care of others. This lesson might have serious >consequences. Right you are Jackie. My experience has been in whitewater, but I would think it would work about the same on the ocean (or a big lake). I've not been in one of these situations, but the paddlers I know who have sort of put it like this: What is the feasibility of rescue? If it is not very likely to be successful then the chances are pretty good that your are risking more lives (yours and other companions) for the sake of the first one who gets into trouble. It's a judgement call. Can you help without unreasonable risk to yourself and/or others who are not yet in danger (or at least as much danger as the victim, or soon to be victim)? I have friends who have had the stated but unwritten rule for certain trips to not attempt rescue if it means endangering the rescuer unreasonably. I have not been on such a trip, but I can see it as a worthwhile pact. Just picked up John Winters's tome and need to read it. This was written first just to keep him from biasing me with himself as a "Canadian Ballast Rockhead" (ooh ooh.. sorry John! <grin>) type stuff. Hank Hays *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote (snip) >I bet 99% of the readers of this list NEVER do any hair boating. (Those >who do, please stand up!) So, perhaps, we should agree to accept a >ground rule: > >What "ethics" are apropos of "normal" boating? > >I'd kind of like to know just what sorts of people and conditions are >likely to lead to my abandonment (aside from having eaten ALL the Oreo >cookies surreptitiously -- snarf! snarf!). > >-- >Dave Kruger >Astoria, OR >sea kayaker -- and never a hairy one! Dave, just leave a few oreos in the bag and you can count on me to be there for you ;) Diane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Richard wrote; (Large SNIP) - I showed Richard's post to my wife thinking she might like to read some nice things about me instead of Tim Ingram's posts. After she read it, she called the police telling them there was an impostor claiming to be her husband living in her house. John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote; > >>I bet 99% of the readers of this list NEVER do any hair boating. (Those >>who do, please stand up!) So, perhaps, we should agree to accept a >>ground rule: >> >>What "ethics" are apropos of "normal" boating? >> >>I'd kind of like to know just what sorts of people and conditions are >>likely to lead to my abandonment (aside from having eaten ALL the Oreo >>cookies surreptitiously -- snarf! snarf!). I think the "rules" are always relative the rescuer. If the rescuer feels a rescue will endanger his or he life then you should expect no assitance. Hopefully they will be knowledgeable enough to know when they are risking their life. Jackie's statistics about rescuer deaths are sobering. The principle followed by the Red Cross, St John's Ambulance and Royal Life Saving Society is simple, The object is to save lives not create more fatalities. When instructing in first aid and life saving we set up accident scenarios. If a student persistently risks his or her life to effect a rescue they fail the course. In fact, most instructors will conive all sorts of diabolical situations just to see how obseevant and careful you are. I just looked through my records and found that I failed four people for that reason alone. Diane's experience is worth analysing. I hope she will not take this in the wrong light. I assume she wrote about he experience as an object lesson an does not object to us dissecting the events. She wrote; (SNIP) >Brian mentioned that as we knew, he had been feeling ill for a couple of days, and it was now really catching up to him. Should Brian have been paddling when he was progressively getting sicker? > He decided to paddle directly for the channel (SNIP) >Trish and I decided to carry on to the fishing camp at Nootka, and cross toVernacci from there, as we had originally planned. Should they have separated when he was sick? >Brian left us, (SNIP) >I was tired by this time as well and wanted to begin the passage across to Vernacci. Should they have persisted even thought they were getting tired? Why did they wait until they were tired to decide to go home? > However. My intrepid (and naive) companion decided that she was going go through and there was no dissuading her. Does one have any obligation to a person who deliberatly persists in doing something dangerous? > She said she had been unable to get out of the lagoon (surprise) but finally struggled through 30 minutes or so before slack, followed by the canoe. She did not see me right away and assumed I had left witout her. Her arms were jello, she said. (SNIP) Plus, one of the books on the area says, *do not* attempt to go in or out except at slack water. I had shared this with her before she went in but she didn't take it seriously. See above and why didn't they heed expert advice? >We paddled out of the small bay and began the crossing to Vernacci. I saw immediately to my great dismay that instead of the typical wind drop in early evening which results in usually calm pleasant evening paddling conditions, the wind had continued to pick up and was crossing the seas which were building behind us, resulting in big slop. The weather doesn't just spring up out of nowhere. Why weren't the aware of an unusual weather pattern? >Neither one of us liked this at the outset but we pushed out and got into it. After about 15 minutes, I realized that I was afraid. Keep in mind they were already tired. Why did they persist? >Largish breaking following seas and lots of wind and slop is my least favorite of paddling conditions. My fear was multiplied because I felt responsible for Trish, who was understandably more frightened than I was. (SNIP) Note the word "responsible". Why? Should she have forcibly detained Trish? > I saw Vernacci slipping by on our right as we struggled to keep from broaching, and yelled at Trish to turn. She could not bring herself to do it, and I understood this completely, having been similarly frightened on other occasions. We decided the only course of action was to just keep paddling evenly and strongly till we reached a point of land which was on our course, which was now determined by the wind and sea. (SNIP) They are in well over their heads now and worst of all haven't the skill to extricate themselves by turning back. >After calming down we got back in our boats and I took us over to the lee of a smaller island and around the northerly point. We poked our bows out into Fidalgo Passage which was still ugly. (SNIP) Why did they try again after the previous experience? >Although Trish wanted to try to paddle on, (SNIP) Any comments on Trish as a traveling partner here. >Trish did not have any extra clothes and was getting cold, and pretty well refused to spend the night with me wrapped in a tarp in the woods! She wanted to try going out around the south end of the island we were on, hoping that the water conditions might be better there. I explained how it would be even worse, but I did not want to let her go alone. Think about this for a moment. What would you have done? What is more important, your life or companionship for Trish? >Brian at first thought we had been invited to have dinner at the fishing lodge, but then grew concerned.. Here is this nice handy lodge and we have two tired inexperiecned paddles and deteriorating conditions. What would you do? >We both hugged Brian and with great pleasure ate the wonderful tasty soup he had prepared for us. We were very glad to be back at camp, and I was happy I had followed Trish this time! I would say this is a good example of a dysfunctional group. I consider the a good example of group tyranny. Because Diane felt some responsibility to stay with Trish she was led into harm's way. Suppose we take each incident separated here and see how each of us would have responded both to the isolated incident and the entire episode. . John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John wrote (snip)> >Diane's experience is worth analysing. I hope she will not take this in the >wrong light. I assume she wrote about he experience as an object lesson an >does not object to us dissecting the events. No problem. I need to learn lots! > >Should Brian have been paddling when he was progressively getting sicker? I paddled when I was really sick on a trip in Johnstone Strait and it caused a huge amount of trouble for one of my companions. What I'm coming to is, if I wouldn't run, then I shouldn't paddle. I tend to back out on running fairly early in feeling ill or weak and don't go back till I feel really strong. Brian showed no sign of fatigue or low energy, in his defense, and I think of the three of us, he was the most prudent in cutting short the day's activities when he began to feel whatever he was getting, hitting more strongly. We should have gone with him. (snip) >Should they have separated when he was sick? I should have accompanied him since he was getting sicker. I guess this is part o something I have a lot of trouble with in my character, which is to assume "the man" will be fine. Would I have gone to Vernacci with Brian if he was a female friend? This is really unsettling territory to explore and I feel pretty bad about it. I think if it had been a strong female paddler who wanted to depart, under the conditions at the time I would have let her go too.It was such easy paddling conditions and only 40 minutes to the island. Now, I would not separate. I would go with the person who was leaving because of illness, man, woman, silkie ;) whatever. I sure make some selfish assumptions sometimes. Aaarggh. > > > >Brian left us, (SNIP) > >I was tired by this time >as well and wanted to begin the passage across to Vernacci. > >Should they have persisted even thought they were getting tired? Why did >they wait until they were tired to decide to go home? Lack of knowledge of local conditions, partly, and general poor judgment for the rest, I guess. > >Does one have any obligation to a person who deliberatly persists in doing >something dangerous? I wonder if she would have persisted if I had said, I'm going to Vernacci now. You shouldn't go in there. I want you to come with me. And proceeded to leave. > >> She said she had been unable to get out of the lagoon (surprise) but >finally struggled >through 30 minutes or so before slack, followed by the canoe. She did not >see me right away and assumed I had left witout her. Her arms were jello, >she said. (SNIP) >Plus, one of the books on the area says, *do not* attempt >to go in or out except at slack water. I had shared this with her before >she went in but she didn't take it seriously. > >See above and why didn't they heed expert advice? Well, I did. I didn't go in. I actually do believe what I read in paddling guides and I'm glad I do! I think Trish believed, as she tends to when running, that she can find that extra push and come through somehow with mind over body. She has side lined herself several times with that attitude though. > >>We paddled out of the small bay and began the crossing to Vernacci. I >saw >immediately to my great dismay that instead of the typical wind drop in >early evening which results in usually calm pleasant evening paddling >conditions, the wind had continued to pick up and was crossing the seas >which were building behind us, resulting in big slop. > > The weather doesn't just spring up out of nowhere. Why weren't the aware >of an unusual weather pattern? The VCKC is ofering a marine meteorology course in March. I've been coasting on paddling partners' knowledge and skill for too long. > > >Neither one of us liked this at the outset but we pushed out and got into >it. After >about 15 minutes, I realized that I was afraid. > >Keep in mind they were already tired. Why did they persist? Looking back, that is a good question. I was wondering if Brian would ge woried and come out after us, so thought we had better get back to our site. We could have stayed at Nootka, I'm sure. > >>Largish breaking following >seas and lots of wind and slop is my least favorite of paddling conditions. >My fear was multiplied because I felt responsible for Trish, who was >understandably more frightened than I was. (SNIP) > >Note the word "responsible". Why? Should she have forcibly detained Trish? Hah! I'd need more duct tape than I had with me ;) > (snip) >They are in well over their heads now and worst of all haven't the skill to >extricate themselves by turning back. This was really apparent. Very irresponsible. > > >After calming down we got back in our boats and I took us over to the lee >of a smaller island and around the northerly point. We poked our bows out >into Fidalgo Passage which was still ugly. (SNIP) > >Why did they try again after the previous experience? > > >>Although Trish wanted to try to paddle on, (SNIP) > >Any comments on Trish as a traveling partner here. Next time I'm bringing several rolls of duct tape, and we'll have a long talk before the trip about prudence. And I won't be so apprehensive about someone else's opinion of me. (snip) >Think about this for a moment. What would you have done? What is more >important, your life or companionship for Trish? Uh...anyone read "Codependent No More"? ;) These discussion are forcing me to look at residues of my own people pleasing behaviour. The dangers of that mindset really are highlighted in the settings we are considering. > (snip)> >Here is this nice handy lodge and we have two tired inexperiecned paddles >and deteriorating conditions. What would you do? I know wht I'd do, now. (snip) > >I would say this is a good example of a dysfunctional group. (snip) Yes, I think we have a lot to work out in terms of realistically assessing skill levels and forming agreed upon procedures that we won't argue about when the time comes to implement them, like staying together...I donknow if this group will actualy paddle together again. Brian has gone on to buy a surf boat and is gaining confidence with more gnarly conditions than I can handle. I need to gain confidence and skill and thus feel less dependent on others. Which will be a big relief to the "others" I'm sure. > >Suppose we take each incident separated here and see how each of us would >have responded both to the isolated incident and the entire episode. >. It's intersting to examine the dynamics from a distance and through other people's eyes. Thanks for taking the time to comment. Diane, not ready to join the Tsunami Rangers *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> From: dianem_at_sd61.bc.ca > > John wrote (snip)> > >Diane's experience is worth analysing. I hope she will not take this in the > >wrong light. I assume she wrote about he experience as an object lesson an > >does not object to us dissecting the events. > > No problem. I need to learn lots! Thanks, Diane, for posting your experience here. I am convinced that there are probably more sea kayakers with similar stories than those who have never had an incident. I've personally heard many and have experienced some myself. Sharing them in a public forum accomplishes a couple of things. One is helping others to understand that these experiences are shared by others. Another is by evaluating the situation and by proposing possible solutions, it empowers paddlers with the ability to say "no" to someone by receiving support from a group of knowledgeable and highly experienced paddlers as we have here like John Winters and a number of others, some with professional backgrounds in SAR, sea kakyak instruction in paddling and safety techniques, etc.. Also, by sharing in this forum we can hopefully equip ourselves with more solutions or new ideas. > > > > >Brian left us, (SNIP) > > >I was tired by this time > >as well and wanted to begin the passage across to Vernacci. > > > >Should they have persisted even thought they were getting tired? Why did > >they wait until they were tired to decide to go home? > > Lack of knowledge of local conditions, partly, and general poor judgment > for the rest, I guess. > > > > >Does one have any obligation to a person who deliberatly persists in doing > >something dangerous? > > I wonder if she would have persisted if I had said, I'm going to Vernacci > now. You shouldn't go in there. I want you to come with me. And proceeded > to leave. If you continue to paddle with her, I think you should be prepared that she will continue to ignore your wishes and advice. She did, afterall, attempt to paddle out the lagoon without your going along. On future trips, you can state and have her understand that if you do not feel comfortable paddling a certain section/time, she had better be prepared to paddle alone. And if you are prepared to paddle alone yourself, you will have more confidence in saying no. I suspect if you continue to paddle with her, at some point, you will be paddling alone. I agree with John that you were being bullied. > > > >>We paddled out of the small bay and began the crossing to Vernacci. I > >saw > >immediately to my great dismay that instead of the typical wind drop in > >early evening which results in usually calm pleasant evening paddling > >conditions, the wind had continued to pick up and was crossing the seas > >which were building behind us, resulting in big slop. > > > > The weather doesn't just spring up out of nowhere. Why weren't the aware > >of an unusual weather pattern? This is a good point. I have learned (occasionally the hard way), that the weather pattern along the Gulf of Mexico is *highly* unpredictable in late winter/early spring. I was aware of this from a "land roamer" point of view, but had not given it much consideration as a sea kayaker until caught in a couple of these (ignorant, completely). This is also the time when Texas experiences most of its tornados (early spring - early summer). Weather radios at times have not only been useless, but dangerous when relying on them for long-term planning (course of a day or more) as often the forecasts are inaccurate within a few hours. I purchased a weather radio with an emergency beeper for the additional advantage of immediate weather updates/warnings for severe weather during nights when camped out on the islands. There are many isolated severe thunderstorms along the Gulf coast during this time that also makes forecasting weather for a specific area difficult. The best protection is to know this is possible during this time of year, continually watch the sky and horizon and note the wind patterns *regardless* of what weather is being forecast on the radio. Summer is the most stable, but the hottest. Of course, this is also the time of year when hurricane season kicks in, but advanced warnings for those systems begin many days ahead of actual occurrence in the immediate area. However, it is important to realize these systems can impact water surface conditions a few days in advance of the system. > The VCKC is ofering a marine meteorology course in March. I've been > coasting on paddling partners' knowledge and skill for too long. > > > > >Neither one of us liked this at the outset but we pushed out and got into > >it. After > >about 15 minutes, I realized that I was afraid. > > > >Keep in mind they were already tired. Why did they persist? > > Looking back, that is a good question. I was wondering if Brian would ge > woried and come out after us, so thought we had better get back to our > site. We could have stayed at Nootka, I'm sure. Many people continue on when they are frightened because they want to reach familiar territory quickly. People do not always act in their best interest when frightened (like the fleeing suspects being chased by police and helicopters that more often than not, flee to their own homes ???!). I worked for a forensic engineer who investigated house fires. It was disturbing, amazing, shocking to see the reaction of some victims upon discovering their house was on fire. One occupant smelled smoke, looked down the hallway and saw fire at the opposite end of the house, panicked and then ran into the bathroom, locked the door and hid in the tub (there was a window in the bathroom, no fire alarm in the house). She did not survive. If she had made plans in advance for such a possibility including the purchase and installation of a fire alarm as well as planned out escape routes from all areas of the house, she most likely would have lived. I think it is when people do not consider or face what could happen and are unprepared/untrained is when the panic sets in and actions are taken which are contrary to good sense and safety. Which is also why I think these discussions about safety here are so *very* important. > >>Largish breaking following > >seas and lots of wind and slop is my least favorite of paddling conditions. > >My fear was multiplied because I felt responsible for Trish, who was > >understandably more frightened than I was. (SNIP) > > > >Note the word "responsible". Why? Should she have forcibly detained Trish? > > Hah! I'd need more duct tape than I had with me ;) I've heard of people removing paddles or other means to prevent someone from paddling when that individual is acting irresponsibly and contrary to their own safety. Sort of like taking the keys away from a drunk driver. I think your friend was reacting out of panic and therefore, endangering both of you. > (snip) > >They are in well over their heads now and worst of all haven't the skill to > >extricate themselves by turning back. > > This was really apparent. Very irresponsible. I'm not sure irresponsible is the correct term so much as ignorant. Sea kayaking is often promoted as an easy, no instructions necessary, "flat-water" sport. It is unfortunate that often the way we learn is through some scary incident. We then become less ignorant. The next question is then "what do I do to make sure this doesn't happen again?" Which you have responsibly (and bravely :-) done by presenting your situation for analysis to a group that contains some very experienced and highly-trained paddlers (I do not include myself in that category). Some may agree, some may have opposing ideas/opinions, but in any case, you will have something to consider. > > >After calming down we got back in our boats and I took us over to the lee > >of a smaller island and around the northerly point. We poked our bows out > >into Fidalgo Passage which was still ugly. (SNIP) > > > >Why did they try again after the previous experience? > > > > > >>Although Trish wanted to try to paddle on, (SNIP) > > > >Any comments on Trish as a traveling partner here. > > Next time I'm bringing several rolls of duct tape, and we'll have a long > talk before the trip about prudence. And I won't be so apprehensive about > someone else's opinion of me. Some of us just need permission to act on our own best interest and against the wishes of another (maybe stronger-minded) individual. That can come from the opinions (permission) of experienced and expert paddlers. It can also come from a life-threatening situaton in which you survive and discover the opinions of others don't mean diddly compared to your own safety :-) > (snip) > >Think about this for a moment. What would you have done? What is more > >important, your life or companionship for Trish? > > Uh...anyone read "Codependent No More"? ;) These discussion are forcing me > to look at residues of my own people pleasing behaviour. The dangers of > that mindset really are highlighted in the settings we are considering. By being willing to put your trip under a magnifying glass makes me think you are doing fine :-) > (snip)> > >Here is this nice handy lodge and we have two tired inexperiecned paddles > >and deteriorating conditions. What would you do? > > I know wht I'd do, now. One thing you mentioned was a concern that Brian might think you were in trouble if you did not return by a certain time. I think that not keeping to a specific schedule might be the reason many continue paddling when they shouldn't. I personally think it is better to have the coast guard looking for you when you are safely tucked away on the beach/island than be in a life threatening situation where no one is looking for you at all (your comment that Brian was not concerned as he thought you had stayed over for dinner or something like that). > (snip) > > > >I would say this is a good example of a dysfunctional group. (snip) > > Yes, I think we have a lot to work out in terms of realistically assessing > skill levels and forming agreed upon procedures that we won't argue about > when the time comes to implement them, like staying together...I donknow if > this group will actualy paddle together again. Brian has gone on to buy a > surf boat and is gaining confidence with more gnarly conditions than I can > handle. I need to gain confidence and skill and thus feel less dependent on > others. Which will be a big relief to the "others" I'm sure. Feeling less dependent on others will give you the confidence. Prepare for every situation as if paddling alone (while you are enjoying the company of your friends). > >Suppose we take each incident separated here and see how each of us would > >have responded both to the isolated incident and the entire episode. > >. > > It's intersting to examine the dynamics from a distance and through other > people's eyes. Thanks for taking the time to comment. Thanks for presenting your situation. I think it provides food for thought and discussion which could help to prevent other situations. > Diane, not ready to join the Tsunami Rangers Ditto, but some of it sure looks like fun, I have to admit... :-) Jackie _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o \\ o o ` (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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