"? Is there a time when a Greenland paddle should not be used? " I've thought about getting/making a Greenland style paddle, but one of the reasons I haven't done so is frequent trips on narrow, twisting blackwater rivers. I use WW paddles all of the time--a 206 cm Werner Wenatchee and a 203 cm Werner Quest. I use the high angle paddling style that I learned paddling my first kayak, a Prijon Taifun. It seems to me that there are two ways to change the "gear ratio" in kayak touring. One, already much discussed, is to change the size of the blades. The other is to change the shaft length. The relationship between the Wenatchee and the Quest is similar to the relationship between the San Juan and the Camano. Going from a 230 cm San Juan to a 220 cm Camano would have more effect than going from a 230 cm San Juan to a 230 cm Camano. Over a year ago now, John Winters was kind enough to answer for me some questions about paddle length. I can't quote him at this late date, but in essence he wrote that as long as the shaft is long enough to enable a paddler to fully immerse the blade(s), a shorter shaft is more efficient than a long shaft for straight-ahead paddling. A paddle with a longer shaft has some advantages for sweeps and braces. While I'm flirting with heresy, there's another issue I've puzzled over for quite a while. I have a colleague who is a canoe racer. His 18' boats make my Meridian look like a fat scow, but that's another issue. He uses the "sit and switch" technique with bent shaft paddles. His paddling style makes sense to me. Many of our touring kayaks have good tracking characteristics. Would we actually be able to go farther on less energy if we used a single bladed paddle and switched sides every 4-6 strokes? I would already have a short canoe paddle if I could find one commercially available with a full-sized blade and a 23" shaft. However, none of the canoe paddle manufacturers make one that short. I carry a cut down aluminum/plastic canoe paddle as a spare and I have used it to get myself home (over a mile) in an emergency, but that paddle has lousy balance and I wouldn't want to use it for ordinary cruising. Bob -------------------------------------------------- Robert C. Perkins, Ph.D. Associate Dean for Research and Planning Methodist College, Fayetteville, NC 28311 910-630-7037 rperkins_at_methodist.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 07:38:28PM -0500, Robert C. Perkins wrote: > Would we actually be able to go farther on less energy if > we used a single bladed paddle and switched sides every 4-6 strokes? I don't think so - even if you skipped switching sides in order to keep the stroke rate up. Compare the times for K-1/C-1, K-2/C-2 sprint racers from the last Olympics -- I think it can be safely assumed that all of these athletes are in about the same physical condition and are paddling similar boats. Even though the canoe stroke has more power in it (since the paddler is kneeling), the canoes aren't as fast because the kayaks maintain a higher stroke rate. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Robert C. Perkins wrote: > It seems to me that there are two ways to change the "gear ratio" in kayak > touring. One, already much discussed, is to change the size of the blades. > The other is to change the shaft length. The relationship between the > Wenatchee and the Quest is similar to the relationship between the San Juan > and the Camano. Going from a 230 cm San Juan to a 220 cm Camano would have > more effect than going from a 230 cm San Juan to a 230 cm Camano. > > Over a year ago now, John Winters was kind enough to answer for me some > questions about paddle length. I can't quote him at this late date, but in > essence he wrote that as long as the shaft is long enough to enable a > paddler to fully immerse the blade(s), a shorter shaft is more efficient > than a long shaft for straight-ahead paddling. A paddle with a longer > shaft has some advantages for sweeps and braces. > A simpler, more cost effective way of "changing gears" might be changing your grip (i.e. hand spacing) on the loom/paddle. For you bicycle types, it would be like changing sprockets as the wheel/tire radius remains constant (i.e. leverage). This may require additional "shoulder rotation" for "low gears". Fred *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Robert, >>Robert C. Perkins wrote: >> Would we actually be able to go farther on less energy if >> we used a single bladed paddle and switched sides every 4-6 strokes? Rich Kulawiec answered: >I don't think so - even if you skipped switching sides in order >to keep the stroke rate up. Compare the times for K-1/C-1, K-2/C-2 >sprint racers from the last Olympics -- I think it can be safely >assumed that all of these athletes are in about the same physical >condition and are paddling similar boats. Even though the canoe >stroke has more power in it (since the paddler is kneeling), the >canoes aren't as fast because the kayaks maintain a higher stroke rate. That's for sprints. Used to be that marathon canoe paddlers using canoe paddles could outdistance sprint kayakers for the long haul, which they attributed to the fact that canoe paddles at under 10 ounces are lighter and could be used longer with less fatigue than much heavier (approx. 3X the weight) kayak paddles. But that seems to have changed some. Used to be that all the Texas Water Safari paddlers used canoe paddles, but the winners in recent years have switched to using kayak paddles for the major part of the race. They don't use wings, cause wings rip their bodies apart for a long race. They use standard kayak paddles, the lightest ones they can find. The Texas Water Safari is 260 miles nonstop, though participants can stop and rest if they wish. There is an unlimited class where they put 4 to 6 paddlers in a 30+ foot specially built canoe and head for the finish line (using lights at night). Record high river levels last year allowed a finish time of under 30 hours, which broke the old record by over 4 hours if I remember right. A low water year can produce 45 to 50 hour first place finish times. Anyone on the course over 100 hours any year is disqualified. None of this wimpy Finlandia Special 20 or so mile leg then rest for a night stuff for Texans! I actually thought about entering back when I was young and foolish (and marathon racing). I never did, and now I'm old and foolish, but not enough so to paddle against Texans. Kayakers can use canoe paddles, but most aren't seated high enough for them to be efficient. Good luck, Hank Hays *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hank wrote; (SNIP of excellent discussion on paddles) > >Kayakers can use canoe paddles, but most aren't seated high enough for them >to be efficient. Unless you are Verlen Kruger. :-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hank Hayes wrote: "Kayakers can use canoe paddles, but most aren't seated high enough for them to be efficient." Hank and I have traded email on this subject before. I understand how leverage works and, in theory, his argument. In practice, it works like this for me. When I'm paddling normally, my hands are about 22" apart on the shaft. On each side, there is about 8" between my hand and the throat of the blade (depending on how you measure where the blade starts) and 24.5" between my hand and the tip of the blade. Wouldn't I get roughly the same amount of leverage if I used a canoe paddle that fit these specifications? I'm reasonably certain of these numbers because I spent a couple of weeks trying to determine the sizing for a Greenland-style paddle. Bob -------------------------------------------------- Robert C. Perkins, Ph.D. Associate Dean for Research and Planning Methodist College, Fayetteville, NC 28311 910-630-7037 rperkins_at_methodist.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob wrote; Re: canoe Vs kayak paddle >Hank and I have traded email on this subject before. I understand how >leverage works and, in theory, his argument. In practice, it works like >this for me. When I'm paddling normally, my hands are about 22" apart on >the shaft. On each side, there is about 8" between my hand and the throat >of the blade (depending on how you measure where the blade starts) and >24.5" between my hand and the tip of the blade. Wouldn't I get roughly the >same amount of leverage if I used a canoe paddle that fit these >specifications? > Yes, you would. I think Hank was talking about the overall power in the system. Sit-and-switch paddling seems to work best with bent shaft paddles and a higher seating arrangement. Some one mentioned that sprint kayaks were faster than sprint canoes and this is true over the full course length but canoes are faster in the first 100 metres. Also, the boats are different so it isn't really quite so clear that it is the paddling style that is the whole difference. Nevertheless, it seems that the kayak paddle is more effective. The issue of cadence is important since it is possible to have too high a cadence as well as too low a cadence. This was one area that the Speed Boss revolutionised rowing. It was discovered that greatest speed was achieved not by rowing faster than a specific cadence for each crew. Steve wrote about the Voyageurs. Most deaths and accidents to voyageurs happened on the portages or in rapids. Strangulated hernia was the big killer if I remember correctly. They did use small paddles but they also paddled 16 hours per day. Hard to do that with a large paddle. Hell, hard to stay awake 16 hours a day for me. They stopped every hour for a smoke break. They also a rotten diet and few lived past their thirties. Not sure they were good people to emulate. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Apr 01, 1998 at 07:45:42AM -0500, John Winters wrote: > Some one mentioned that sprint kayaks were faster than sprint canoes and > this is true over the full course length but canoes are faster in the first > 100 metres. I think it was me, but then again I'm having a crazy week, so who knows? This would make sense; the kneeling position allows one to exert considerable power, which in turn should lead to faster acceleration at the start...which is why C-boats would behave as you observe. I'd imagine that once the acceleration is over and the boats are in cruise, the K-boat stroke rate begins to tell. One thing that I can tell you is that in whitewater slalom, C-1's can make certain moves (notably pivot turns through upstream gates in sharp eddies) faster than K-1's but they tend to be slower on ferries. Roughly speaking, C-1 times end up about 10-15% off K-1 times for equivalently skilled paddlers on most courses. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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