> Now that the subject's been raised, who uses rudders and who leans >the boat? > > My Current Designs Solstice GTS has a rudder, but I've never used >it. I bought the boat slightly used from Pacific Wave where it was the >"extra" trip boat for a while for the "in crew" at the shop. . . I don't >think the rudder's ever been used. > > The Solstice GTS tracks in all seas, and doesn't broach or windcock >much. > > Anyone want to keep score on this one? > I second your opinion of the GTS without its rudder deployed. Remarkably easy to paddle in windy conditions. However, I do use the rudder in confused windy conditions, when travelling in a straight line for a long distance. It is not "needed" but it saves energy. This whole question of rudders should be addressed in the context of particular boats. If a boat needs a rudder it doesn't have a good hull shape. Others have remarked that all boats weathercock without a rudder or skeg. This is only superficially true. Some are very difficult in winds, such as the Sea Lion or the Caribou, some are quite well behaved, such as the GTS or any of the Mariner boats. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Gerald Foodman wrote: >...SNIP... > > This whole question of rudders should be addressed in the context of > particular boats. If a boat needs a rudder it doesn't have a good hull > shape. Others have remarked that all boats weathercock without a rudder or > skeg. This is only superficially true. Some are very difficult in winds, > such as the Sea Lion or the Caribou, some are quite well behaved, such as > the GTS or any of the Mariner boats. One of the issues that invariably arises in our discussions over rudders/skegs is this issue that you raise, as to whether it is the boat or the paddler that needs the rudder. You say that certain *boats* need rudders, but your examples are not consistent with your conclusion. First, you state (as though it were fact) that the Caribou is "very difficult in winds". The correct statement is that the Caribou is difficult *for some paddlers* to handle in the wind. While I have read reports that some folks have difficulty controlling the Caribou in winds, I can only conclude that this is because they have not developed the requisite skills. I find the Caribou to be exceptionally EASY to control in winds, as do many other Caribou owners. (My own experience is based on paddling one in a wide variety of wind and sea conditions over the past year and a half.) If this were not the case, I would not hesitate to add a skeg (or to sell the boat). Second, you state that the Mariner boats "are quite well behaved". Again, this is true for some paddlers, but is not true for others. For example, I find the Mariner II to be very easy to control in winds, but I once paddled with a guy who, when the wind picked up, had a great deal of difficulty controlling his Mariner II. This was in part due to the fact that he did not have the boat loaded properly (he had ignored Mat Broze's warning to load the boat stern heavy) and was in part due to his poorly developed skills. (By the way, Matt Broze told me that a lot of the problems that some folks have in controlling their Mariners is due to their failure to pay proper attention to how they load their boat. The Caribou is even more sensitive to proper loading.) It is interesting to note that I have seen Mariner IIs with rudders attached. In one case (when I was on the market for one) I found one in the Seattle area that was in good shape except that it had a really ugly rudder (I suppose that's redundant). The woman who owned it pleaded with me not to tell the Brozes. She explained that she had great difficulty controlling the boat in winds without the rudder. The problem is that she actually BELIEVED all this stuff about how, if you buy the right boat, you don't need a rudder. I didn't have the heart to tell her that the shortcoming was with the paddler, NOT the boat. By the way, I have never seen a Caribou with a rudder or a skeg, in spite of the fact that the original manufacturer of the Caribou offered all customers a *free* skeg retrofit if they decided that they wanted one after paddling the boat for a while. No one took him up on this. In short, while boat design is not irrelevant, most of the problems that people have controlling boats in the wind are the result of inadequate skill development. Even folks who make some attempt to learn boat handling skills often think that boat lean and sweep strokes are all that one needs to know. Even beginning canoeists, however, very quickly learn the stern draw, which can have a magical effect in terms of controlling a sea kayak in the wind. Nigel Foster teaches this in his classes for "experienced" sea kayakers. Canoeists taking one of his classes might be inclined to wonder what all of the fuss is about. Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
No matter how poorly designed a boat is, a good paddler will be able to manage it, BUT there seems to be a point at which there are diminishing returns. Control takes energy and constantly correcting for a wandering boat takes it's toll, no matter how proficient one may be. cya Bob Denton Vice President Undersea Breathing Systems bob_at_dnax.com http://www.dnax.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:14 AM 27-03-98 -0800, Dan Hagen wrote: ...snipped... >First, you state (as though it were fact) that the Caribou is "very >difficult in winds". The correct statement is that the Caribou is >difficult *for some paddlers* to handle in the wind. While I have read >reports that some folks have difficulty controlling the Caribou in >winds, I can only conclude that this is because they have not developed >the requisite skills. ...snipped... In the discussion of whether a kayak "needs" a rudder/skeg or not, certainly, as many have pointed out, design of the kayak is of first importance. Second, skill of the paddler is paramount, and a paddler who requires a rudder/skeg one year, may not need it as there skills improve. But there is a third issue which many seem to forget; we all know of kayaks which behave better in tough conditions if they are loaded, but are quite difficult to control when unloaded. Now let's consider something we often forget, which is the weight of the paddler. A paddler in a boat built for the "average kayaker", will likely be paddling a design who's intended operator is presumed to be around 160-200 pounds. This kayak will handle optimally with a paddler of this size carrying the usual paraphernalia we so love to bring along. But what happens when the paddler is only 120 pounds? The kayak rides higher than it's intended design, and may be more difficult to handle in the same conditions the 180 pound paddler finds comfortable. So while improving skills will help, if the boat is not at the optimal water line, the paddler is penalized in its handling characteristics. I think it's really important for a paddler to get a kayak properly sized for their weight and intended use...by which I mean do you plan to mostly day-trip, or go camping...so you can paddle at the design's most efficient waterline. This goes for larger/heavier paddlers, too, as they can no doubt attest. I'd like to hear comments from others on this issue, both user's and designers. Leander overfall_at_ix.netcom.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >In the discussion of whether a kayak "needs" a rudder/skeg or not, certainly, >as many have pointed out, design of the kayak is of first importance. Ok, first I suppose that everyone knows that a rudder is to go strait and not for turning. That is why the throw is limited.More makers try to make a general purpose kayak , by increasing rocker the kayak turns better but does not track very well, so a rudder makes it a do all kayak. Sea kayaks were for the most part made to go in straight lines for most of the paddling was in the open ocean. Sense most Kayakers are not SEAkayakers but river and lake kayakers they want to be able to turn more easily,or they would run into the bank on the other side. Most paddlers use the rudder to turn with and not to counter the wind.There are a few that when the rudder breaks they are helpless because they never learned techniques for turning or paddling with a side wind. The Traditional kayaks were used for hunting and survival so kayakers knew how to paddle or they would not come back from a hunt. To me about 98% of todays kayakers would never make it with their paddling skills and are in the need of a rudder and all the other helping aid they can get. Not that thats bad, we use kayaks for pleasure so most of the time our lifes do not depend on our great learned skills unless you paddle in all kind of conditions pushing your luck a wee bit. (but staying on the safe side of course) If you look at most of the books our kayaks look similar at first glance , but if you look close ours are made for comfort and theirs for necessity,those of you that have "kayakers leg go to sleep syndrome" would not make it in a traditional kayak very long and would kill to get out of it and stand up. Boy my typing finger is getting tired. nuff said. God I love spell check!! Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
yup. At, my then, 145# my Arluk III only really settled to an appropriate waterline with 100# of gear/water. It was "impossible" to edge with that kind of ballast, really requiring a rudder/skeg for efficient efforts (if in an open top(e.g. Canadian canoe), I could stand to get the leverage, obviating the advantage of a rudder:). Without that excessive ballast, the boat was blown about, requiring the almost never used rudder/skeg for efficient efforts. A much lower volume boat has not exhibited these tendencies. My experiences lead me to conclude; appropriate boat size for corresponding paddler obviate the need for an open top boat, rudder, and skeg:). Leander wrote: > At 08:14 AM 27-03-98 -0800, Dan Hagen wrote: > ...snipped... > >First, you state (as though it were fact) that the Caribou is "very > >difficult in winds". The correct statement is that the Caribou is > >difficult *for some paddlers* to handle in the wind. While I have read > >reports that some folks have difficulty controlling the Caribou in > >winds, I can only conclude that this is because they have not developed > >the requisite skills. ...snipped... > > In the discussion of whether a kayak "needs" a rudder/skeg or not, certainly, > as many have pointed out, design of the kayak is of first importance. Second, > skill of the paddler is paramount, and a paddler who requires a rudder/skeg > one > year, may not need it as there skills improve. But there is a third issue > which > many seem to forget; we all know of kayaks which behave better in tough > conditions if they are loaded, but are quite difficult to control when > unloaded. Now let's consider something we often forget, which is the weight of > the paddler. > A paddler in a boat built for the "average kayaker", will likely be > paddling > a design who's intended operator is presumed to be around 160-200 pounds. This > kayak will handle optimally with a paddler of this size carrying the usual > paraphernalia we so love to bring along. But what happens when the paddler is > only 120 pounds? The kayak rides higher than it's intended design, and may be > more difficult to handle in the same conditions the 180 pound paddler finds > comfortable. So while improving skills will help, if the boat is not at the > optimal water line, the paddler is penalized in its handling characteristics. > I think it's really important for a paddler to get a kayak properly sized > for their weight and intended use...by which I mean do you plan to mostly > day-trip, or go camping...so you can paddle at the design's most efficient > waterline. This goes for larger/heavier paddlers, too, as they can no doubt > attest. > I'd like to hear comments from others on this issue, both user's and > designers. > Leander > overfall_at_ix.netcom.com > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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