During the heated exchanges on sponsons Tim Ingram often said that life rafts had high form stability and that should prove conclusively that beam (and consequently form stability) was best for safety at sea. At the time I suspected an error in this but did not have the resources at hand to find the truth. I have obtained the information (much embarrassed to find out it had been on the net all along and I had been searching incorrectly) and it is a good example of how one can be easily led astray by selective reading. The following comes from the Canadian specs that are virtual copies of the IMO (International Marine organisation SOLAS (Safety Of Life at Sea) regulations 15. (1) Every inflatable life raft that has the complement set out in column I of an item of the table to this subsection shall be fitted on the underside with the number of water pockets set out in column II of that item. >What followed was a table showing the required size of ballast pockets that you need not be bothered with< (2) Water pockets shall be of a highly visible colour and distributed evenly around the circumference of the life raft at each side of the gas bottles, with sufficient separation between them to allow air to escape readily. (3) The cross-sectional area of a water pocket shall form the shape of an isosceles triangle, the base of the triangle being the part that is attached to the life raft. 16. (1) The aggregate capacity of the water pockets of a life raft shall be (a) where the complement of the life raft is fewer than nine persons, not less than 225 L; and (b) where the complement of the life raft is nine or more persons, not less than the greater of (I) 225 L, and (ii) (18 x N) L, where N equals the number of persons in the complement. (2) Water pockets shall be designed in such a way that the pockets fill to at least 60 per cent of their capacity within 25 seconds after the deployment of the life raft. Clearly the IMO believes that only ballasted life rafts are acceptable. This is supported by US Coast Guard studies. Doug Ritter in a review of rafts for Aviation Consumer says, "The less expensive unapproved rafts, commonly purchased for Part 91 light plane use, were potential death traps, though assuredly much better than nothing." Note the "potential death traps". Now let us hear what one life raft manufacturer says about unballasted life rafts. Winslow also offers a single tube, double cell "Rescueraft" in 4, 6 and 8 person size, starting at 16 lbs. and $1,069. It represents the very bottom of Winslow's line. It is simply a GA-ST with no ballast or most of the other accouterments, except entry aids. President Fred Shoaff commented, "I hate selling that Rescueraft, but some people simply will not pay any more and for sheltered waters in fair weather it is probably adequate and far better than nothing." Winslow pointedly refuse to even call it a "life raft" in their literature or when discussing it, since it has no ballast. Notice the reference to ballast and the reference to sheltered waters. Givens, a maker of life rafts boasts that their life raft is self righting due to water ballast the equivalent of 4700 lb. of lead ballast!!!! Another aspect of life raft design is particularly appropriate where boats are concerned. This quote from a study of aviation life rafts. >From the Aviation Consumer article comes this gem. "Rectangular and square rafts are more likely to settle in a wave trough, dig into the water and capsize while a round raft will tend to carrousel rather than capsize. A number of studies have shown that rectangular rafts are particularly prone to being capsized in conditions where they end up broadside to a wave. Keep in mind that boats are much closer to the rectangular model than the round model. The point in all this is that people will look at rafts and assume that, because they are wide and stable that it is the beam that makes them seaworthy when in fact they are only safe when equipped with large amounts of ballast - something sea kayaks rarely have. without the ballast they are potentially dangerous just a I was trying to point out in my discussion of sponsons. Tim made assumptions about rafts that weren't valid. Worst of all he assumed that, because some people survived in them that proved how good they were. Listen to what Doug Ritter says again, " Even those rafts rated "unacceptable" have "saves" they can claim. Of course, those not saved rarely get the opportunity to complain. " This is important. Just because some people are saved by a device that does not mean all people will be saved by it a Tim claimed. I wish I had taken time to look this up back when we were discussing this topic and extravagant claims were being bandied about. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
[large snip, very informative] > because they are wide and stable that it is the beam that makes them > seaworthy when in fact they are only safe when equipped with large amounts > of ballast - something sea kayaks rarely have. without the ballast they are > potentially dangerous just a I was trying to point out in my discussion of > sponsons. > [ another snip, we all know that Tim has a metal block ] > > Cheers, > John Winters > Redwing Designs > Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft > http://home.ican.net/~735769/ A while back when we were discussing the design of a self righting kayak for disabled people someone came with the idea of using a water ballast, but then the problem was that as soon as the ballast cylinder hit the water it would fail to exert the vertical force required to complete the last 90 degrees of the recovery. I assume that the form of the life rafts is such that it is very unstable when sitting on its side, and the water in the pockets would right it up before it drains out. In the case of a kayak with water pockets, it would probably like to rest on its side without righting up. Therefore lead ballast (or CB Rocks) seem to be the only useful type of ballast for sea kayaks. As a side note, Derek Hutchinson shows a picture of a canister attached to the inner surface of the keel of a kayak designed to hold ballast. See? Even Derek Hutchinson sponsors Canadian Ballast Rocks, Inc.! :-) The last issue of Sea Kayaker talks has an evaluation of a life saving raft. They still do not get the clue. If the sea is rough, the victim would not be able to stay on the raft. A more useful thing would be a raft with the shape of an envelope. The paddler would get in and stay there surrounded by pockets of air that would keep him/her warm. We could call it "rescue capsule". It is good that at least a few of us are interested in safety issues for advanced paddlers. Probably 99% of the paddlers that buy their kayaks at REI do not even have the concept. - Julio *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio wrote: snip The last issue of Sea Kayaker talks has an evaluation of a life saving raft. They still do not get the clue. If the sea is rough, the victim would not be able to stay on the raft. snip I think this response is getting off the subject that John Winters was concerned about but I want to respond to Julio's comment that appears to be writing off the usefulness of the Thermofloat Sea-Seat which recently received a favorable evaluation by Chris Cunningham in the April issue of Sea Kayaker magazine. The purpose of the Sea-Seat is to extend survival time in cold water by slowing the process of hypothermia. Water conducts heat away from the body 27 times faster than air. Even if conditions were too rough to spend all of your time up on the raft your survival time will be increased if you can spend some of the time on the raft or if you can use the raft to keep your upper-body out of the water. The raft has a line on it that clips to your PFD so you will be able to stay with the raft in rough water. In it's stored condition it is small enough that you can keep it on your person when not in use so you are sure to have it if you need it. It has a oral inflation tube and can be inflated in 1 3/4 to 2 1/2 minutes. Loss of consciousness can occur when the body core temperature reaches 86 F (20 C) and death usually occurs between 86 F (26.7 C) and 80 F (30 C). Six of the hypothermia survivors documented in the book "Deep Trouble" had core temperatures from 77 F to 88 F. Several of the 9 fatalities reported in "Deep Trouble" are believed to be caused by hypothermia. Numerous other canoe and kayak fatalities have resulted from hypothermia. Personally I'm taking a serious look at the Sea-Seat. I don't own one yet and since it probably looks like I'm trying to promote them I should state than I don't have any connection with the company or anyone who sells them. I enjoy sea kayaking solo in the winter (Washington State and nearby Canadian waters) and any reasonable safety device will be considered by me. I agree with John Winters and others on this list who believe that trust in safety equipment can lead to trouble when it's not balanced with good judgment and good boat handling skills and that access to safety devices may even increase the level of risk if someone purchases equipment and then heads out into conditions that are even more dangerous than what they may have been exposing themselves to previously. Julio also wrote: A more useful thing would be a raft with the shape of an envelope. The paddler would get in and stay there surrounded by pockets of air that would keep him/her warm. We could call it "rescue capsule". Well you may have a good idea here Julio. Let me know when you get it on the market. How will it be more stable than the Sea-Seat? How do you keep water out of the air pocket? Make sure it is small enough in it's stored condition to be a convenient "on-person" device. Rex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:59 AM 3/7/98 -0800, Rex wrote: >>Julio wrote: >>A more useful thing would be >>a raft with the shape of an envelope. The paddler would get in and >>stay there surrounded by pockets of air that would keep him/her warm. >>We could call it "rescue capsule". > >Well you may have a good idea here Julio. Let me know when you get it on >the market. How will it be more stable than the Sea-Seat? How do you keep >water out of the air pocket? Make sure it is small enough in it's stored >condition to be a convenient "on-person" device. I agree that it sounds like a good idea. I thnk I'd get seasick as heck in it in rough, water, though. Tumbling down a wave wouldn't make it any better. Hank Hays *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hank Hays wrote: > At 10:59 AM 3/7/98 -0800, Rex wrote: > >>Julio wrote: > > >>A more useful thing would be > >>a raft with the shape of an envelope. The paddler would get in and > >>stay there surrounded by pockets of air that would keep him/her warm. > >>We could call it "rescue capsule". Interesting; a sort of combined exposure bag, rescue seat and pfd. If you could give the bag some small insulative ability you'd really have something. Or maybe we should all just carry an inflatable kayak? -- mike ---------------------------------------- Michael J Edelman mje_at_mich.com http://www.mich.com/~mje http://www.mich.com/~mje/kayak.html http://www.mich.com/~mje/scope.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio wrote, > >A while back when we were discussing the design of a self righting kayak >for disabled people someone came with the idea of using a water ballast, >but then the problem was that as soon as the ballast cylinder hit the >water it would fail to exert the vertical force required to complete >the last 90 degrees of the recovery. > >I assume that the form of the life rafts is such that it is very >unstable when sitting on its side, and the water in the pockets >would right it up before it drains out. In the case of a kayak with >water pockets, it would probably like to rest on its side without >righting up. Therefore lead ballast (or CB Rocks) seem to be the >only useful type of ballast for sea kayaks. The Givens raft is supposed to be 100% self righting. I have written to them asking if the same concept used on their raft could be used on kayak. If it could then deploying such a device would make the kayak easy to renter and stable in any conditions. If the fabric was not bulky (no idea from the advertising what it is like) it might be a useful addition for extreme conditions sinc it alos appears to slow drift. > >As a side note, Derek Hutchinson shows a picture of a canister >attached to the inner surface of the keel of a kayak designed to hold >ballast. See? Even Derek Hutchinson sponsors Canadian Ballast Rocks, Inc.! :-) That damned Derek. Always stealing my rocks.:-) > >The last issue of Sea Kayaker talks has an evaluation of a life saving >raft. I haven't gotten that issue yet but am looking forward to it from what has been said already. Rex wrote some good comments of hypothermia and I was looking at some survival suits but they looked so bulky that anyone using one would probably be immobilized. Does anyone have experience with them? Hank wrote about barf bags and and I really like the idea although I am not sure if it is best to barf into the same bag you are swimming in. :-) Jack wrote about one person Navy life rafts but those did not seem to be among the rafts tested by The Aviation Consumer in 1994. Jack, are those test results on the web or do I have to do the snail mail begging thing? It sounds like the Navy's rafts were better designed than the FAA approved rafts. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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