I'm still thinking about pumping water in rough seas by myself with a hand pump, although I will be on the lookout for a foot pump (or some sort of substitute) at a reasonable price ($175US is not reasonable). A general rule of survival is to try to think of all the things that can go wrong and then have some sort of plan in case one of those unhappy circumstances occur. That's all I'm trying to do here. My thinking now says, if I'm in the water, by myself, in rough seas with a cockpit full of water that I can't empty by lifting the kayak up and flipping it, to not bother with a self rescue at that point because I won't be able to stay upright long enough to pump the water out anyway. Instead, I'd attempt to pump the water out before getting in. Can I do that? I'm on the Maine USA coast so the water is pretty cold. The wind is heavy, the swells are large and frequent or the waves are big and choppy. I'm not in a surf zone so are the waves breaking over me frequently? If they are, can I get down wind of the kayak, roll it halfway or three quarters of the way towards me, let the waves break on the bottom while I pump water? Or can I get up wind of the kayak, leap up and cover the cockpit with my torso, let the waves break over me, and try to pump that way? Or can I take off my spray skirt, attach it to the cockpit and pump the water out through it? If I can do any of these things, will I be hypothermic by the time I'm done or still have the strength to try to do a self rescue? What if I can't? I have those little floaty, yellow things (dare I say the "S" word?) that attach to the sides of a kayak. I will have (soon) floatation bags for bow and stern. If I'm on a camping trip, they'll probably just be rolled up near the hatch. If I'm on a day trip, they'll be at least partially inflated and in place. Maybe I can make a little raft to help keep the old bod out of the water. The floatation bags (will) have grommets on the wide end but nothing on the skinny end. Maybe I'd have a pre-attached line going through the grommets, that can go over the body, wrap around the skinny end and tie back up around the grommets. That should help keep the torso out of the water. The yellow floaty things could be used in a similar manner to help keep the legs out of the water. I would have to take the hatch covers off to get at the floatation bags. If they're just rolled up and near the hatch, I should be able to partially lift the hatch and cover to get them out. If they're inflated, I'd have to cover the hatch with my torso or spray skirt (assuming it would fit) while I worked to deflate them. If I was camping and the hatches were full, it would be my responsibility to ensure the floatation bags were the last things loaded so they would be readily available or maybe keep them in the cockpit as part of the emergency equipment. I have a cockpit cover that I would start carrying, to keep water out of the cockpit. I don't plan on putting myself in a position where any of this will be needed but s**t happens and if it does, I want to come out of it smelling like a rose :-). BTW, the floatation bags I'm looking at are only 42". I figure that will be adequate since I don't really want to fill the hatches up completely. I'll always have extra clothes, porta-pottie stuff, first aid stuff, etc tucked away. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I at some point tried actually pumping a quantity of water from one half of the kitchen sink to the other using the standard-issue hand pump and was amazed at how long it took to move any quantity of water with it. Though there is still one under my deck bungees, I believe I would reach for my bailing can (plastic lighter fluid container with the top cut off) in a situation such as you describe. mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mark H. Hunt wrote: > > I at some point tried actually pumping a quantity of water from one > half of the kitchen sink to the other using the standard-issue hand pump > and was amazed at how long it took to move any quantity of water with it. > Though there is still one under my deck bungees, I believe I would reach > for my bailing can (plastic lighter fluid container with the top cut off) > in a situation such as you describe. > mark Hand pumps are nice deck decoration. I carry one in each of my boats. BUT I know that a bailer made up of any recycled half gallon or gallon container (with its top cut off) would work better and be less tiring. The battery operated pumps also do work. I don't have one but have observed how well they operate and they don't break down as easily as people fear. One friend who uses one stores it in a bailer. That way he has a back up if the battery setup fails, which it hasn't for him. They will pump out water at a much faster rate than one can effectively accomplish with a hand pump and allows your hands to be free for paddling or picking your nose. As for the flooding concerns addressed elsewhere. A good solution is a seasock. It keeps water entry to a minimum and can be emptied as easily as turning a sock inside out. You should burp em everytime you do open them up as they will otherwise not fully extend inside the cockpit because of countering air pressure. If you don't want to make one ourself, Feathercraft has them. They are standard for their boats and they will sell them. I personally don't like the feel of them and they can be slick and have you sliding around. Nor do I like the way they hinder access to things under deck; being in a folding kayak gives me lots of places to attach stuff around me on both sides and in the center spot in front of me. But most hardshellers carry little around them inside the cockpit and would not find using a seasock much of an access sacrifice. My dos centavos, ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Mark H. Hunt wrote: > > > > I at some point tried actually pumping a quantity of water from one > > half of the kitchen sink to the other using the standard-issue hand pump > > and was amazed at how long it took to move any quantity of water with it. > > Though there is still one under my deck bungees, I believe I would reach > > for my bailing can (plastic lighter fluid container with the top cut off) > > in a situation such as you describe. > > mark > > Hand pumps are nice deck decoration. I carry one in each of my boats. > BUT I know that a bailer made up of any recycled half gallon or gallon > container (with its top cut off) would work better and be less tiring. In ocean racing (sail), we have a saying: "The most efficient bailer is a frightened man with a bucket." Roger > The battery operated pumps also do work. I don't have one but have > observed how well they operate and they don't break down as easily as > people fear. One friend who uses one stores it in a bailer. That way > he has a back up if the battery setup fails, which it hasn't for him. > They will pump out water at a much faster rate than one can effectively > accomplish with a hand pump and allows your hands to be free for > paddling or picking your nose. > > As for the flooding concerns addressed elsewhere. A good solution is a > seasock. It keeps water entry to a minimum and can be emptied as easily > as turning a sock inside out. You should burp em everytime you do open > them up as they will otherwise not fully extend inside the cockpit > because of countering air pressure. If you don't want to make one > ourself, Feathercraft has them. They are standard for their boats and > they will sell them. I personally don't like the feel of them and they > can be slick and have you sliding around. Nor do I like the way they > hinder access to things under deck; being in a folding kayak gives me > lots of places to attach stuff around me on both sides and in the center > spot in front of me. But most hardshellers carry little around them > inside the cockpit and would not find using a seasock much of an access > sacrifice. > > My dos centavos, > > ralph diaz > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter > PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 > Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>My thinking now says, if I'm in the water, by myself, in rough seas with >a cockpit full of water that I can't empty by lifting the kayak up and >flipping it, to not bother with a self rescue at that point because I >won't be able to stay upright long enough to pump the water out anyway. >Instead, I'd attempt to pump the water out before getting in. Can I do >that? > Clyde Why don't you use a paddle float to enter your kayak and then use it for support while pumping out? Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Clyde; There are several points that you might want to consider as you plan your self rescue techniques. The first one is to keep it simple. Your idea of trying to empty your boat before you get back in (by partially climbing on top of it or by positioning yourself downwind) will indeed force you to spend an inordinate amount of time in the water. The purpose of a self rescue is to get out of the water as fast as possible. If your system does not allow for that then you might want to consider modifying your system. Trying to remain on, but not in, your kayak while emptying would be exhausting in itself, not even factoring in hypothermia. Another point to consider is that, whatever system you finally adopt, you should never depend on opening your bow or stern hatch in order to implement it. To remove your hatches is to compromise your boats flotation and such a move should be avoided at almost all costs. (Remember, it is much easier to see a boat from the air or sea than it is to see a swimmer in the water.) If you can't roll then you will need some method to stabalize your kayak in order to get back in. Practice using your sponsons or learn how to use a paddlefloat. Both of these methods can be used to stablize your boat as you empty it. John Winskill Sisler, Clyde wrote: > > I'm still thinking about pumping water in rough seas by myself with a > hand pump, although I will be on the lookout for a foot pump (or some > sort of substitute) at a reasonable price ($175US is not reasonable). > > A general rule of survival is to try to think of all the things that can > go wrong and then have some sort of plan in case one of those unhappy > circumstances occur. That's all I'm trying to do here. > > My thinking now says, if I'm in the water, by myself, in rough seas with > a cockpit full of water that I can't empty by lifting the kayak up and > flipping it, to not bother with a self rescue at that point because I > won't be able to stay upright long enough to pump the water out anyway. > Instead, I'd attempt to pump the water out before getting in. Can I do > that? > > I'm on the Maine USA coast so the water is pretty cold. The wind is > heavy, the swells are large and frequent or the waves are big and > choppy. I'm not in a surf zone so are the waves breaking over me > frequently? > > If they are, can I get down wind of the kayak, roll it halfway or three > quarters of the way towards me, let the waves break on the bottom while > I pump water? > > Or can I get up wind of the kayak, leap up and cover the cockpit with my > torso, let the waves break over me, and try to pump that way? > > Or can I take off my spray skirt, attach it to the cockpit and pump the > water out through it? > > If I can do any of these things, will I be hypothermic by the time I'm > done or still have the strength to try to do a self rescue? What if I > can't? > > I have those little floaty, yellow things (dare I say the "S" word?) > that attach to the sides of a kayak. I will have (soon) floatation bags > for bow and stern. If I'm on a camping trip, they'll probably just be > rolled up near the hatch. If I'm on a day trip, they'll be at least > partially inflated and in place. Maybe I can make a little raft to help > keep the old bod out of the water. > > The floatation bags (will) have grommets on the wide end but nothing on > the skinny end. Maybe I'd have a pre-attached line going through the > grommets, that can go over the body, wrap around the skinny end and tie > back up around the grommets. That should help keep the torso out of the > water. The yellow floaty things could be used in a similar manner to > help keep the legs out of the water. > > I would have to take the hatch covers off to get at the floatation bags. > If they're just rolled up and near the hatch, I should be able to > partially lift the hatch and cover to get them out. If they're > inflated, I'd have to cover the hatch with my torso or spray skirt > (assuming it would fit) while I worked to deflate them. > > If I was camping and the hatches were full, it would be my > responsibility to ensure the floatation bags were the last things loaded > so they would be readily available or maybe keep them in the cockpit as > part of the emergency equipment. I have a cockpit cover that I would > start carrying, to keep water out of the cockpit. > > I don't plan on putting myself in a position where any of this will be > needed but s**t happens and if it does, I want to come out of it > smelling like a rose :-). > > BTW, the floatation bags I'm looking at are only 42". I figure that > will be adequate since I don't really want to fill the hatches up > completely. I'll always have extra clothes, porta-pottie stuff, first > aid stuff, etc tucked away. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Last month I wrote Laurie Ford in Australia (he is associated with the Tasmanian kayaker group) and queried him on their use of electric bilge pumps. Having forgotten his reply to me, I had been shopping the other day and came across a 'RULE 1100' Electric Bilge Pump for around $53.00 Canadian, and about the same for a 6 amp/12V. gel battery. This seems a good price for such a valuable investment in equipment that can pump me out at a rate of 18-1/2 gallons per minute or 1100 gallons per hour. In bad seas with a flooded hull you would be out of the cold and trouble in a hurry with both your hands and feet free to brace and paddle as required. I understand that the Matsuyuker kayakers (from Tasmania all use them with valued success) and Peter Carter's Voyageur kayak uses electric bilge pumps as well. Anyway, here is a quote received from Laurie Ford whom I deem to be an expert: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "As for electric pumps - in the last 20 years there is only one type that I would recommend, and I have tried out several others. The RULE 500 (used to be 400) is the only one that never gives any trouble. Others have had the impeller disintegrate, or the housing develop leaks. The gel battery most of us use is 6AH, 12v - but this would depend on whether you are mainly into day trips or 2 week trips. If you only intend day paddles, then a 2AH would be sufficient - and some commercial kayaks come out fitted with these. But for a 2 week trip (or longer) use the 6AH version. The RULE 500 draws about 2 amp when running, and will empty a full cockpit in a couple of minutes - and in theory you could have the pump running for over 3 hours continuously. I hope this info is of value. Best Regards, Philip Wylie We are equipping our four Dyson 5.6M Baidarka's with them and have placed our order for four pumps and four batteries. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I haven't seen much specifically addressing installation of these pumps. I'm assuming it requires drilling the hull and installing some sort of fitting perhaps involving a 1 way valve. I have run into a possible source for inexpensive batteries that you might find of use. Happy Paddling! Ed http://www.allcorp.com/BATTERY04.html <snip> Having forgotten his reply to me, I had been shopping the other day and came across a 'RULE 1100' Electric Bilge Pump for around $53.00 Canadian, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "(snip) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Has anyone heard of a selfcontained pump which runs on 3 C cells? cya Bob Denton Gulf Stream International Boynton Beach, Florida Internet Web Site Development *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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