>Again, other than top speed, what performance advantage does the Nordkapp >have over the Chinook? Assuming this story is true, than the Chinook has >more performance in that it allows kayaking in rougher conditions. Can this >be true? I never paddled either boat, but I bet that true blue Nordkappers >would disagree. Or when the conditions get really hairy are they wishing >they were in Chinooks? > >Jerry In my experience paddling various incarnations of the Nordkapp, it is at its absolute best in rough water.......that is... in the hands of a capable paddler. The responsive nature inherent to the Nordkapp's hull design make it easier for an accomplished paddler to respond immediately to the quickly changing sea conditions. To me, the Nordkapp just begs to get way up on it's edge and feels very stable there, the rolling pitching nature of rough water in a sense keep it on edge, thus my comment of the boat being at its best in rough water. The Chinook's inherent stability is without question. You can easily stand up in one. I've never taken a Chinook out in 6-8 foot seas, nor have I tried to surf one but I can only imagine that it would feel a little slugish. As to the validity of the anecdote quoted in your posting of instructor/Nordkapp versus paddler/Chinook. Something is missing among the elements of the story. Unless there were extenuating circumstances, this doesn't sound like an instructor with a Sea Proficiency rating...particularly someone with instructor credentials. But, anything can happen...... Robert Starling ________________________________________________________ Robert Starling Member ASMP / PPA Starling Productions, Inc. Orlando, Florida Phone 800 361-0041 Fax 407 521-0031 http://www.starling.com NetGuide Magazine Internet Site Of The Day *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-05-09 01:23:26 EDT, klagjf_at_worldnet.att.net writes: << Can you be specific as to what all those wonderful things are that the advanced boat is capable of? Is performance more than just top speed? >> What's the difference between a VW and a Ferrari? I mean either one will get you to the market and back. I much prefer the "sportiness" of an advanced boat design to the sluggishness of a beginners boat. An "expert" level boat is generally faster and more responsive and just has a better "feel" to it. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Ki Ayker <KiAyker_at_aol.com> > What's the difference between a VW and a Ferrari? I mean either one will >get you to the market and back. I much prefer the "sportiness" of an advanced >boat design to the sluggishness of a beginners boat. An "expert" level boat is >generally faster and more responsive and just has a better "feel" to it. > >Scott >So.Cal. I don't think that the VW vs Ferrari analogy is appropriate. In a kayak, "sportiness" is not necessarily advanced. Consider a narrow, tippy, low rocker, very straight tracking boat. This is an advanced design, but not "sporty"; some would say sluggish. Versus a sporty, high rocker, highly maneuverable boat of the same dimensions. Which is "better" in rough water? It depends whether you are playing or travelling from point A to B. On the other hand, if you are dog tired but still have miles to go, and you are struggling to stay upright in gnarly conditions, a better advanced boat would be a bit wider (but not too wide) and more forgiving. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, May 09, 1998 at 03:17:04PM -0700, Gerald Foodman wrote: > I don't think that the VW vs Ferrari analogy is appropriate. I do. Boats which excel (as much as possible given the design constraints) at being fast in a straight line, plus quick to turn (when flat), plus quick to pivot, plus stable when paddled on edge, plus relatively easy to roll...[etc.] are high-performance boats. This is why I paddle a Dagger Predator: I want a boat that will let me to put it anywhere my muscles and nerve can manage, and this particular design seems to allow me to do just that. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >This is why I paddle a Dagger Predator: I want a boat that will let >me to put it anywhere my muscles and nerve can manage, and this >particular design seems to allow me to do just that. > >---Rsk >Rich Kulawiec >rsk_at_gsp.org Rich Would you say that is true in sea kayaks?( I know you don't sea kayak) **Boats which excel (as much as possible given the design constraints) at being fast in a straight line, plus quick to turn (when flat), plus quick to pivot, plus stable when paddled on edge, plus relatively easy to roll...[etc.] are high-performance boat** Does not relate for sea kayaks but the same princaple might work with I want a boat that will let me to put it anywhere my muscles and nerve can manage. which means a more skilled paddler? Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, May 09, 1998 at 08:12:46PM -0400, dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: > Rich > Would you say that is true in sea kayaks?( I know you don't sea kayak) I don't know, so I'd only be guessing -- I came in during the middle of the thread and just saw the term "kayak" being used, so I didn't know that this was just about sea kayaks. Edging back out the door, ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>I don't think that the VW vs Ferrari analogy is appropriate. There is sporty and then there is sporty. A Ferrari is "high-performance", but so is a Jeep or a Camero. In their individual speciality, each will probably beat the other (and there may be others that will do better in each speciality. A high performance may be fast, or manuverable, or easy to roll, or surf well, or carry a lot of gear efficiently, or... Performance, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Usually a "high performance" kayak will be optimized for something other than simple all-around handling for a novice (which could be defined as a high level of performance in its own right). Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, RFD 2 Box 850, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6872 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > > ...SNIP... > A high performance may be fast, or manuverable, or easy to roll, or surf > well, or carry a lot of gear efficiently, or... Yes, exactly. (I particularly like that "or...".) The point is that there are *many* dimensions to performance. Boats differ according to their "feel" because they are at different points along these various dimensions. Every so often one paddles a design that just feels right, given one's paddling style and preferences. This was my reaction to paddling a Caribou. The boat is so lively and responsive to my paddling style that it seems to respond to my every thought. > > Performance, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Usually a "high > performance" kayak will be optimized for something other than simple > all-around handling for a novice (which could be defined as a high level of > performance in its own right). > Nick This says it as well as it can be said. (And from a designer, no less!) Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; (Large SNIP) > >The story is true since I heard it just a few days after it happened and >talked extensively to all the people involved. I think you missed the >point or points of my story. First, the performance boat in the story >had a great paddler in it but even at some point, he could not handle >the situation because his boat lacked enough initial stability to get >set for the next wave. The guy in the Chinook chose to ride out the >waves on a broached brace. The boat was good enough to do what he >needed and had the sufficient skill for what is a fairly moderate task. >What surprised me is his ability to hold it for half a mile or more. I >think it was a nice combination of initial and secondary stability that >allowed this plus just the modicum lean allowed in the Chinook. Experts >will feel happier and challenged in their advanced boats; the rest of us >will be happier in boats that do some of the stuff for us and apply our >less sharp and less practiced smaller arsenal of skills. > What Ralph is talking about here is valid within the context of the event and the people involved. I don't know that "expert" is an absolute. Experts come in a wide variety of types, sizes, skills, etc. just as novices may be instinctively good or just incompetent regardless of experience etc. The point that I think Ralph makes is that "advanced" is a relative term and that not every boat is advanced or even good in every set of circumstances Keep in mind that it is possible to have a boat that is too unstable for conditions or paddler just as it is possible to have one that is to stable for conditions or paddler. There is an ideal boat (theoretically) for every individual paddler under any specific set of circumstances and it is not the same boat for all paddlers. One should not conclude that more stability is better than less stability from one incident. One should only recognise the effects of stability and its different advantages and disadvantages and act accordingly. When we talk about "advanced" boats we are really talking about a rather airy fairy thing. An advanced boat for ocean crossings will not be an advanced boat for surfing or day trips or rolling practice or swamp exploring etc. etc. Performance as a comprehensive term is a package of characteristics that varies with objectives and paddler. >From a design standpoint an advanced boat is one that meets a particular objective in a superior fashion relative to existing boats designed for that purpose. That objective may be seaworthiness and seakindliness for a long distance traveller, speed for a racer, responsiveness to the paddler who enjoys pirouettes and so forth. The failure of one person/boat combination under a particular set of circumstances should not be construed as a failure for all circumstances either real or imagined. It is common for paddlers to assume that the boat that is right for them is right for everyone and to argue vehemently about it. I suppose people need reinforcement that they made the right decision and try to get it by persuading others to paddle the same or similar boats. Builders love it. It is called brand loyalty. It is, as has been proven many times, not always rational. I believe that one need only define what one would like a boat to do. Then find a boat that does does it better than any other boat and you have found your advanced boat. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: gulfstream_at_flinet.com <gulfstream_at_flinet.com> To: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net>; Gerald Foodman <klagjf_at_worldnet.att.net> Date: Saturday, May 16, 1998 6:10 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] What is performance anyhow? >>As a relatively new Nordkapper, my impressions of the boat in rough water compared to more stable boats is that it's less work to remain upright BUT easier to get knocked over, as was the case below. >> The Nordkapp is reputed to be a wonderful rough water boat. I have never paddled one. Can it be true that it is "easier to get knocked over" than in a more stable (but not too stable) boat? What do other Nordkappers think? Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry wrote; (SNIP) > > Again, other than top speed, what performance advantage does the Nordkapp > have over the Chinook? Assuming this story is true, than the Chinook has > more performance in that it allows kayaking in rougher conditions. Can this > be true? I never paddled either boat, but I bet that true blue Nordkappers > would disagree. Or when the conditions get really hairy are they wishing > they were in Chinooks? I would be wary of anecdotal information on boats. The issue of safety and performance is too complicated to base a buying decision on information that may not be complete or may have been improperly interpreted. The more information you have the better and then fit the boat to your needs not some one else's. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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