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From: JorgieJ <JorgieJ_at_aol.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] D-rings
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 11:00:05 EDT
I've thought about gluing with contact cement Velcro onto the insides of  the
hull to form adjustable tie downs for the gear I carry in the hatches.  It's
adjustable, easy to remove and should hold everything in place in rough seas
or if you roll......any thoughts??
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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_seasurf.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] D-rings
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 09:57:28 -0700
JorgieJ wrote:
> 
> I've thought about gluing with contact cement Velcro onto the insides of  the
> hull to form adjustable tie downs for the gear I carry in the hatches.  It's
> adjustable, easy to remove and should hold everything in place in rough seas
> or if you roll......any thoughts??

If I have this pictured the way you intend to do it, I suspect the
velcro will not work very well, because its best use is to resist
sideways (shear) forces.  On a direct pull outward, I suspect it won't
take much to release the velcro.  The slow steady pull of a bungie is
perfect for (eventually) releasing it.

Someone (Chuck Holst?) has already posted the method I use to secure
tiedowns inside the hull:  plastic tabs (grey PVC -- NRS sells them, so
does Pacific Water Sports in Seattle, and I've seen some at Alder Creek
in Portland, also) with D-rings attached.  Use 3M marine adhesive --
5200.  And, it really does take 2 days to develop full strength.  But,
it's bombproof, if the hull surface is roughened with 50/80 grit first
(ditto the surface of the plastic tab).

To keep gear corralled, I placed 4 evenly around the perimeter of the
hull of a no-bulkhead kayak, just aft of my seat.  Then I attached a
hook to each end of a bungie, hooked one end to a D-ring, and when the
gear is inside, I weave a figure-eight pattern, finishing on the 4th
D-ring.  Very secure, and easy to "unweave" the "8" to retrieve
everything.

An aside:  Sealline (REI has 'em) makes some very nice tapered drybags
for softer gear, which fit well into the ends to my yak -- making good
use of the narrow parts.  These bags have a large vent button *on the
small end* so you can vent the bag *after* the large end is sealed,
using the traditional "hump the dry bag" technique.  Really gives an
efficient pack.  They are called a "Kodiak Sac," and come in two sizes. 
I use the larger one, identified as "35 taper."  It carries ALL my soft
stuff:  dry clothes, ditty bag, and sleeping bag.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Dan Hagen <dan_at_hagen.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] D-rings
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 18:26:05 -0700
Dave Kruger wrote:

 ...SNIP...
> Someone (Chuck Holst?) has already posted the method I use to secure
> tiedowns inside the hull:  plastic tabs (grey PVC -- NRS sells them, so
> does Pacific Water Sports in Seattle, and I've seen some at Alder Creek
> in Portland, also) with D-rings attached.  Use 3M marine adhesive --
> 5200.  And, it really does take 2 days to develop full strength.  But,
> it's bombproof, if the hull surface is roughened with 50/80 grit first
> (ditto the surface of the plastic tab).

Dave, I have to disagree with you and the earlier poster (John Somers?)
about the use of 3M 5200 adhesive for these D-rings.  The adhesive that
is recommended for these D-rings by most of the retailers who carry
them--including NOC, NRS, and PWS--is a two-part 3M urethane structural
adhesive (*not* 3M 5200, which is a very different adhesive).  I have
been using these D-rings for many years in both kayaks and canoes (I
have probably installed over 200 of them), and I have never had one pull
free, in spite of plenty banging, yanking, constant tension, and various
other abuse. I am not surprised that the person who posted the earlier
message had one come loose with 5200.  If you use the structural
adhesive, prepare the surface properly, and follow the instructions to
the letter, your hull will delaminate before the D-ring pulls free.  

By the way, one final note for any whitewater canoeists out there: the
use of these plastic-plate D-rings is no longer recommended for thigh
strap tie-downs on Royalex boats.  The large plates used for this
application stiffen the hull in the location of the plates, which
together with the contant flexing of the hull (in shallow rivers)
creates a sheer zone along the edge of the plates.  After a very long
time, this can cause the ABS layer of the hull to crack along the edge
of the plates.  (BTW, the stiffening is caused by the plate, not the
adhesive, which forms a flexible bond.)  Of course the D-rings (if
properly installed) will remain stuck to the boat long after the hull
has cracked.  

Dan Hagen
Bellingham, Washington
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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_seasurf.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] D-rings
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 21:56:28 -0700
Dan Hagen wrote:
> 
> Dave, I have to disagree with you and the earlier poster (John Somers?)
> about the use of 3M 5200 adhesive for these D-rings.  The adhesive that
> is recommended for these D-rings by most of the retailers who carry
> them--including NOC, NRS, and PWS--is a two-part 3M urethane structural
> adhesive (*not* 3M 5200, which is a very different adhesive). [snip]
> If you use the structural
> adhesive, prepare the surface properly, and follow the instructions to
> the letter, your hull will delaminate before the D-ring pulls free.

No problemo -- always interested in better ways to do things -- I used
the 3M 5200 out of simple ignorance.  I think it will take the wimpy
loads I'm putting on it, but tell us more about the two-part 3M urethane
stuff.  What is it called, and where would I find it?

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
sea kayaker -- and chemist
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From: Dan Hagen <dan_at_hagen.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] D-rings
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 22:57:11 -0700
Dave Kruger wrote:

> No problemo -- always interested in better ways to do things -- I used
> the 3M 5200 out of simple ignorance.  I think it will take the wimpy
> loads I'm putting on it, but tell us more about the two-part 3M urethane
> stuff.  What is it called, and where would I find it?


3M 3532 (urethane structural adhesive). You have probably seen it on the
shelf (or in the catalog) at whereever you bought your D-rings, as it
seems as though every retailer that carries the D-rings also carries the
adhesive. Many mail-order paddle shops (such as NOC) have a picture of
it in their catalog.  It comes in a brown box, which contains 2 small
tubes. 
  
>From the blurb on the box: "This two-part polyurethane adhesive cures
exceptionally fast at room temperature or with heat to form tough,
flexible impact-resistant structural bonds".

It costs $18-$20 for the two, 2-oz. tubes.  It's rather expensive, but I
am not aware of a cheaper substitute that provides flexible structural
bonds.  I also like the fact that it is *very* easy to use, has very
little odor, is easy to clean up (when still wet), and can fill voids.
It is a good example of "better living through chemistry" (or whatever
the latest slogan is that you chemists use).     

Dan Hagen
Bellingham, Washington
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