Recently I purchased a tandem touring canoe in order to be able to take my wife, son, daughter or a friend paddling. I've been paddling a sea kayak for over a year and tend to think kayaks first when I think about solo boats. However, for tandem use I've always thought a canoe was more useful than a tandem sea kayak because I seldom make trips to the coast and I'm not likely to make any long ocean trips. While I was looking for a touring canoe, I read all of the reviews in _C&K_ and looked at canoes every chance I had. I've seen very few solo touring canoes in paddling shops. I ran across a very pretty Bell a couple of weeks back, but I've never seen any of the Wenonah, Dagger, or Mad River models in the stores here in North Carolina. I can find solo WW canoes but not solo touring canoes. I see pluses and minuses for both sea kayaks and solo touring canoes. I suspect a kayak can handle heavier weather and rougher surface conditions than a canoe. Kayaks seem to be, on the whole, faster. On the other hand, a canoe is easier to load and unload and, if the paddler is doing something that requires frequent stops, much easier to get in and out of than a kayak. Are there other pluses and minuses that I haven't thought of? I'd appreciate some discussion of the pros and cons. Bob -------------------------------------------------- Robert C. Perkins, Ph.D. Associate Dean for Research and Planning Methodist College, Fayetteville, NC 28311 910-630-7037 rperkins_at_methodist.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Robert C. Perkins wrote: > > ...SNIP... I ran across a very pretty Bell a couple of > weeks back, but I've never seen any of the Wenonah, Dagger, or Mad River > models in the stores here in North Carolina. I can find solo WW canoes but > not solo touring canoes. Don't forget to add Swift canoes to your list. The Osprey and Raven are outstanding boats (although according to John Winters the designer is a bit of a jerk :-) It can be difficult in some parts of the country to find solo canoes to "demo", as the market is a bit thin in some areas. There are some excellent designs out there --if you can find them. One thing to think about is the intended use. The category of "touring" boats covers quite a wide range of designs, from boats with signficant rocker, full ends, and substantial depth (14-15 inches in the center) to boats that have very little (or no) rocker, fine ends, and shallow depth. I use the first type for wilderness trips on rivers with significant whitewater (up to class III), and the latter for flatwater touring. There are many more solo designs available today than was the case 10 or 15 years ago. This applies not just to whitewater playboats but to tripping and touring boats as well. Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan wrote; >> > >Don't forget to add Swift canoes to your list. The Osprey and Raven are >outstanding boats (although according to John Winters the designer is a >bit of a jerk :-) Well , he is. Fortunately he is no longer peddling those ballast rocks on this list. He an Culpeper are the only people in the canoeing world sick enough to do their white water paddling in city sewers. It's no joking matter. You should smell these guys after a trip. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: --snip-- > He an Culpeper are the only people in the canoeing world sick enough to do > their white water paddling in city sewers. It's no joking matter. You > should smell these guys after a trip. See, I told you it was the water and not just me! Seriously, I took a group of novice paddlers down the Thames last weekend (class I/II at a nice level). The river is a sewer. Remarkably, it is going for Heritage River status, with an exemption for its lack of natural environment! Richard *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Robert wrote; (SNIP) > >While I was looking for a touring canoe, I read all of the reviews in _C&K_ >and looked at canoes every chance I had. I've seen very few solo touring >canoes in paddling shops. I ran across a very pretty Bell a couple of >weeks back, but I've never seen any of the Wenonah, Dagger, or Mad River >models in the stores here in North Carolina. I can find solo WW canoes but >not solo touring canoes. The solo market is so small that building them is not very profitable. Not sure about all builders but my experience is that one has to build 300 boats from a mold to properly amortise the tooling costs. Some builders build them just to keep their customers happy and have them to offer. Kind of a loss leader. > >I see pluses and minuses for both sea kayaks and solo touring canoes. I >suspect a kayak can handle heavier weather and rougher surface conditions >than a canoe. Kayaks seem to be, on the whole, faster. On the other hand, >a canoe is easier to load and unload and, if the paddler is doing something >that requires frequent stops, much easier to get in and out of than a >kayak. Speaking from experience I can say that canoes are not less seaworthy than kayaks particularly when fitted with a cover. They aren't as fast or sleek and you can't roll them but otherwise there is no reason why one can't use a canoe in open water. Mind, you can't take as many risks although Hans Lindemann crossed the Atlantic in his open dugout canoe. The biggest advantages are the gear carrying ability, ease of loading, portaging and less cost. With a double bladed paddle they aren't as slow as people think although they are never going to be as fast some narrower sea kayaks. When paddling my canoe with sea kayaks I have found that I don't have a huge problem keeping up with most kayaks. To me the canoe comes into its own in allowing you to explore areas that are not easily accessible by sea kayak. Bruce Winterbon, for instance, builds small canoes that are virtually undecked sea kayaks that are perfect for swamping. Light and easy to paddle they can go just about anywhere. If you have a fondness for nature they open up a whole world of plants and animals. In North Carolina (Bob's Country - also God's Country) a solo canoe is a real joy for the tidal estuaries on the west side of Pamilco Sound. Dismal Swamp is another place where a solo canoe is a pleasure. One last good thing about canoes is that you can vary your seating position easily. Old stiff farts like me can sit, kneel, semi kneel or even lay down in the boat not to mention get in and out more easily. I won't mention the positive aspects of sea kayaks since everyone knows them. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The following is meant as information, or clarification, not as argument against anyone else's position. John wrote that my double-paddle canoes "are perfect for swamping." In case it was not obvious from the context, he meant that they were good for paddling in swamps. Whether one prefers a single or double bladed paddle is really just a matter of taste. John wrote that using the double is "disgusting". I don't find it so. This is not an argument, merely a statement that our tastes differ. De gustibus non disputandum est. I went through this line of reasoning several years ago. I want to wander in the bush, which here, in northeastern Ontario, means mostly smallish lakes and rivers and a lot of damned small creeks and ponds. I am lazy, slight of build, and aging (and a few years older than John). The boat will need to be carried, often, so it should be light, and it should be easier to carry than a kayak. In many of the places where I want to paddle, it's difficult to find a good place to get in and out, so I need an open boat, for access via the ends. As I stated above, I have nothing against a double-bladed paddle (even if I do sometimes like to "dance" with a single blade when I'm not going anywhere). With the double blade, I can sit near the bottom of the boat, so the beam can be a kayak's beam, rather than a canoe's. Less weight, less drag. And because the boat is narrower and so more curved, the construction can be lighter: even less weight. (Result: 15' LOA, 24" beam at sheer, 24 lb weight). Thus for much of my paddling, especially daytripping, a double-paddle solo canoe (dpc) is my first choice. As John indicated, you'll have a hard time buying something that fits the above bill reasonably well, so if you're serious, you'll need to build your own, or have one built. IMO, the "Wee Lassie" variants around are fat little tubs. ("De gustibus..." again, of course.) So I'll ramble on for a bit about what you want if you go this route. Everything will be qualitative, of course: my shoes probably won't fit you, so why should my boat? But I'm trying to point to what you need to think about. I don't like to tour in a jealous boat (pay attention to anything else and it gets upset), but jealousy depends on the strength of the relation. Richard likes to tour in a sprint kayak, but I can't handle one. (Maybe if I had the opportunity to try one for a while ...) Thus the boat needs enough stability for the user to be comfortable in it, under all appropriate conditions. The one I usually prefer is just a little bit less stable than my second choice, and in exposed places (e.g. Rhode Island Sound) I'm more comfortable in the second one. Thus: find a boat that you're comfortable in and get (design, build, commission) a dpc with the same stability. You don't need tumblehome, so have the sides flared. If you have the same initial stability (same metacentric height -- see John's book on canoe design) as your "reference" hull, then the flare will ensure you have at least as much "secondary" or "final" stability as the reference until the water starts to come over the gunwale. For ease of paddling, keep the sheerline low where your hands will be. But for seaworthiness, put lots of height into the ends, especially the bow. Footrests are a must. I glued in triangular blocks. If you want to cross bigger lakes, make a cover, too, but make it easy to take off when you want to get out of the boat. And I do enjoy a bit of speed now and then. My boats aren't up to John's standards, and won't come close to Richard's sprint kayak, but they will keep up easily with, or walk away from, most non-racing sea kayaks. And I even have a few true stories that can be made to sound very impressive. Hope this has been useful to someone, at least as food for thought. Bruce Winterbon bwinterb_at_intranet.ca http://intranet.ca:80/~bwinterb All states have laws to protect the rich from the poor. Few attempt the more difficult task of protecting the poor from the rich. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>From Bruce Winterbon: a canoe's. Less weight, >less drag. And because the boat is narrower and so more curved, the >construction can be lighter: even less weight. (Result: 15' LOA, 24" beam at >sheer, 24 lb weight). Thus for much of my paddling, especially daytripping, >a double-paddle solo canoe (dpc) is my first choice. ============== Bruce, your fine essay compells me to ask, what is this canoe you constructioned? are the plans available/where? i've been impressed by a wee-lasse with a kayak paddle, but your boat sounds like much more all-round fun. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bruce wrote; >Whether one prefers a single or double bladed paddle is really just a matter >of taste. John wrote that using the double is "disgusting". I don't find it >so. This is not an argument, merely a statement that our tastes differ. De >gustibus non disputandum est. Actually just kidding since I use the double bladed paddle myself when paddling a canoe especially when on open water and in a head wind. > >As John indicated, you'll have a hard time buying something that fits the >above bill reasonably well, so if you're serious, you'll need to build your >own, or have one built. IMO, the "Wee Lassie" variants around are fat little >tubs. ("De gustibus..." again, of course.) So I'll ramble on for a bit about >what you want if you go this route. Everything will be qualitative, of >course: my shoes probably won't fit you, so why should my boat? But I'm >trying to point to what you need to think about. Quite true about the Wee Lassies. Bruce's boats would be much more fun for those who are used to more responsive boats. > >And I do enjoy a bit of speed now and then. My boats aren't up to John's >standards, and won't come close to Richard's sprint kayak, but they will >keep up easily with, or walk away from, most non-racing sea kayaks. And I >even have a few true stories that can be made to sound very impressive. Bruce is too modest here. I have paddled his boats and they are bloody fast. Actually what I should say is that they cover a range of speed and stability. You can kind of take your pick the compromise that suits you. If recall correctly Bruce has built seven versions. The ease of building these boats is a bonus. I believe one can be built (strippers) in a weekend if one isn't too fussy about the finish. This allows you to build and try a design without investing a lot of time or money. If you use short strips (I ue strips as short as two feet) that you can rip out of almost any piece of wood the cost can be quite low. You could use cheaper cuts of redwood, pine, spruce, basswood etc. If you really like the boat you could even sew a canvas deck for it and you would have a hard shell/soft deck sea kayak. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
When Larry inquired about plans, etc. I realized I had forgotten to put in the appropriate health warning, which I add now: ************************************************** WARNING Boat building is addictive. Boat design is vastly more addictive. ************************************************** Proceed farther at your own risk. You have been warned! (John and Nick: perhaps you should confirm to the others that this apparently tongue-in-cheek warning should be taken seriously. The problem is that if one is sufficiently obsessive to make a half-decent design, you'll see what you should have done differently, and not be comfortable until you've made the change. And that leads to another warning: every serious paddler needs a big garage. ) Back to Larry (and Bob). There is some more info on my web site, and I'm offering to sell plans. However, a sordid story follows. About two years ago I had a disk crash, with no backup. My design program, and all but one of my boat data files, vanished. I have bought a Zip drive, and rewritten the program, so it more or less does what it used to, with some improvements, but I have not yet drawn a set of forms with the new program. The problem is called "feature creep": it would be a better boat if I could ... I have been a few days away from a new design for several months now, averaging perhaps 2-3 hours/day of work on the program. Anyway, I'm not happy about selling plans at the moment. Bob asks about waves. John made two points that apply: 1:add a cover. 2: it doesn't take long to build one (that slippery slope again -- see warning above). Try it and see. However I would not deliberately take one of my boats into short foot-high waves without a cover. In response to an earlier comment or question in Bob's note, my boats are not flat-bottomed, but rather rounded, so thay are not like a dory. For a given wetted beam, the more rounded it is, the less stable, and the faster. Also, I have the feeling, or prejudice, that the rounded , i.e., chineless, bottom is a bit more predictable in response, besides, of course, having slightly less wetted area. I think I should enlarge on the difference in the two boats on Rhode Island Sound, with a very small chop. In the less-stable boat I was conscious of balance; in the more-stable one I was not, and could concentrate on looking around, or cranking out some speed, or whatever, with the feeling that the boat was able to accept full responsibility for staying upright. I recall a few years earlier paddling the more-stable boat down a small lake with a stern-quarter wind and corresponding small chop, a couple of weeks before freeze-up, and suddenly realizing "My god, this boat feels solid!". I like the other one because it is more responsive. Thus the choice is one of taste, and of circumstance. I thank John for his kind words, but I do think he is exaggerating a bit. Bruce Bruce Winterbon bwinterb_at_intranet.ca http://intranet.ca:80/~bwinterb A non-indexed pension is a fraud. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bruce wrote; ->Boat building is addictive. > >Boat design is vastly more addictive. Absolutely. You can never own too many boats and you can never design enough. (SNIP) > >I thank John for his kind words, but I do think he is exaggerating a bit. I never exaggerate. Well, hardly ever. As Will Durant once said, "Eloquence is not often accurate." to which I add, even if you aren't eloquent you still need not be accurate. :-) Or, as my father once said, "In America you can say what you think and even if you can't think you can say it anyway." Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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