At 09:50 AM 7/22/98 +1000, Laurie Ford wrote: >Hi fellow paddlers, > I can't believe the hipe about paddles that is going >on. Last year I attended a session on a beach where one of the countries top >Marathon coaches was talking about paddling efficiently. One thing he said >was that the paddle does not actually move through the water, it is very >much like having a long series of posts set in concrete under the water - >you reach forward with your left hand and pull yourself and kayak forward, >then reach forward with the right hand and pull forward again >Me, I'd rather be out paddling than become a gear freak, and spend the rest >of my life talking about sea canoeing. >I paddle with other people in different types of kayaks, with different >paddles to mine, and to each other - we all seem to paddle along at the same >speed - the type of paddle seems relatively unimportant. > >My own paddle (for over 20 years) is 8'2" (2.5m) long. It has flat >fibreglass blades (22" X 5") laid up on a one and half inch aluminium shaft. > >Laurie Ford. >laurie.ford_at_tassie.net.au >http://www.tassie.net.au/~lford What we are contemplating is how much energy it takes with each stroke with different style paddling blades. Some of us are not so easy to satisfy as you. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Anyone who has ever paddled in mud flats, and confronted the problem of the blades hitting and grabbing the mud, knows that the statement below about the paddle blade not moving is not true. When your paddle gets stuck in mud it takes a tremendous effort to move the boat forward, try it and convince yourself. Also, if the paddle did not move in the water then wing paddles would be no different than any other paddles, and in fact the paddle shape and size would be completely irrelevant. The statement "the paddle does not move in the water, but rather the kayak moves forward" is an instructor strategy to convince the beginner paddler to not paddle with his/her arms, but with his/her body and torso. Once you learn how to paddle then you can feel the difference of different types of paddles and shapes, and get an impression of all the paddling movements, as the true dynamics of paddling are still a matter of debate. - Julio > >on. Last year I attended a session on a beach where one of the countries top > >Marathon coaches was talking about paddling efficiently. One thing he said > >was that the paddle does not actually move through the water, it is very > >much like having a long series of posts set in concrete under the water - > >you reach forward with your left hand and pull yourself and kayak forward, > >then reach forward with the right hand and pull forward again > > > >Laurie Ford. > >laurie.ford_at_tassie.net.au > >http://www.tassie.net.au/~lford *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 11:55:46PM -0700, Julio MacWilliams wrote: > The statement "the paddle does not move in the water, but rather the > kayak moves forward" is an instructor strategy to convince the beginner > paddler to not paddle with his/her arms, but with his/her body and torso. No, it's reality, and it is the correct way to paddle. See the video "The Kayaker's Edge" for a demonstration of this technique -- using buoys to demonstrate that the paddle does not move when the forward stroke is being correctly performed. And by the way, the goal is not to paddle with "body and torso" but with "body and torso and legs", since it's leg pressure on the footbraces which pushes the boat past the paddle. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Rich wrote; > >No, it's reality, and it is the correct way to paddle. See the video >"The Kayaker's Edge" for a demonstration of this technique -- using buoys >to demonstrate that the paddle does not move when the forward stroke >is being correctly performed. Then can you explain what causes those eddies around the blade with each stroke. Also, can you explain how water that cannot support sheer forces can fail to flow around the blade. Also, can you explain how it is that some people talk about how the blade slips thought the water more easily with some blade than others if the paddle doesn't move through the water. Another curious thing. If the blade doesn't move, how does a sculling stroke work? and a brace? I also wonder how the water knows when the stroke is being correctly performed. Another puzzle. If the boat is moving and I stick the paddle down in the water at the perfect angle etc. why doesn't the boat just stop since the paddle doesn't move? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:07 AM 7/22/98 -0400, John Winters wrote: >Rich wrote; > > > >> >>No, it's reality, and it is the correct way to paddle. See the video >>"The Kayaker's Edge" for a demonstration of this technique -- using buoys >>to demonstrate that the paddle does not move when the forward stroke >>is being correctly performed. > > >Then can you explain what causes those eddies around the blade with each >stroke. Also, can you explain how water that cannot support sheer forces >can fail to flow around the blade. Also, can you explain how it is that >some people talk about how the blade slips thought the water more easily >with some blade than others if the paddle doesn't move through the water. > >Another curious thing. If the blade doesn't move, how does a sculling >stroke work? and a brace? > >I also wonder how the water knows when the stroke is being correctly >performed. > >Another puzzle. If the boat is moving and I stick the paddle down in the >water at the perfect angle etc. why doesn't the boat just stop since the >paddle doesn't move? > >Cheers, >John Winters >Redwing Designs >Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft >http://home.ican.net/~735769/ > Why, Why , why as my parents use to tell me and still do for that matter JUST BECAUSE!! I think some of the paddle theory is in the mind and some in the water but as long as it works who cares!!! I like my 2x4 paddle or 1/2 a real paddle or when are you going to buy the rest of the paddle, skinny paddle and maybe the greenlanders had it right they all paddled with the same style paddle so they did not tie up their computer list with scientific stuff. I betcha the dear old Doctor could set things straight Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 08:07:17AM -0400, John Winters wrote: > Then can you explain what causes those eddies around the blade with each > stroke. Also, can you explain how water that cannot support sheer forces > can fail to flow around the blade. Sure. Nobody's forward stroke is perfect. And nobody's blade design is perfect either -- which is why it slips a bit. Both are imperfections to be minimized, but both are non-zero. > Also, can you explain how it is that > some people talk about how the blade slips thought the water more easily > with some blade than others if the paddle doesn't move through the water. I'm sorry, I've no idea why people would talk like this. Why not ask them? > Another curious thing. If the blade doesn't move, how does a sculling > stroke work? and a brace? We were discussing forward strokes, not sculling strokes or braces. > I also wonder how the water knows when the stroke is being correctly > performed. The water doesn't "know" anything. > Another puzzle. If the boat is moving and I stick the paddle down in the > water at the perfect angle etc. why doesn't the boat just stop since the > paddle doesn't move? This is not a puzzle at all. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 8:44 PM -0400 7/22/98, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 08:07:17AM -0400, John Winters wrote: >> Then can you explain what causes those eddies around the blade with each >> stroke. Also, can you explain how water that cannot support sheer forces >> can fail to flow around the blade. > >Sure. Nobody's forward stroke is perfect. And nobody's blade design >is perfect either -- which is why it slips a bit. Both are imperfections >to be minimized, but both are non-zero. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Some people call this slip. In order to make you and the boat go forward, something has to go back. The easiest thing to move is the water. If the water fails to move, you move the whole earth. You don't move it much, but it moves. This is not an imperfection, it is the way things work. When you paddle you are converting your chocolate chip cookies into kinetic energy. You want your boat to get most of that energy and the planet to get as little as possible. The momentum (m1*v1) you gain will always be equal to the momentum you give the earth (m2*v2) because momentum is concerved. Since Kinetic Energy (KE)=1/2*m*v^2 you will see that moving a massive reactive object slowly is more efficient than moving a small object fast to acheive the same momentum. Any advantage a small paddle has is physiological or pyschological because it is not physical. It works by moving a small mass fast. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6872 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dana wrote; > >Why, Why , why as my parents use to tell me and still do for that matter >JUST BECAUSE!! That's what my mother always said. >I think some of the paddle theory is in the mind and some in the water but >as long as it works who cares!!! >I like my 2x4 paddle or 1/2 a real paddle or when are you going to buy the >rest of the paddle, skinny paddle and maybe the greenlanders had it right >they all paddled with the same style paddle so they did not tie up their >computer list with scientific stuff. I betcha the dear old Doctor could set >things straight I will ask the doctor but everyone has to promise not to take offence. Dr. Inverbon is just back from Egypt and is no mood for whiners who can't deal with the truth. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Rich wrote; >Sure. Nobody's forward stroke is perfect. And nobody's blade design >is perfect either -- which is why it slips a bit. Both are imperfections >to be minimized, but both are non-zero. Is it possible to have a100% efficient paddle? Is it possible to have a 100% efficient stroke? >I'm sorry, I've no idea why people would talk like this. Why not ask them? Did. They said it was lift. > >> Another curious thing. If the blade doesn't move, how does a sculling >> stroke work? and a brace? > >We were discussing forward strokes, not sculling strokes or braces. OK. > >> I also wonder how the water knows when the stroke is being correctly >> performed. > >The water doesn't "know" anything. I failed to make myself clear. What would constitute a correctly performed stroke relative to the water? > >This is not a puzzle at all. I was hoping you would explain it to me. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Laurie wrote; >If the afore mentioned coach is correct, and paddling is like pulling your >kayak through the water from stake to stake, then you are going to use 'X' >amount of energy to move yourself and the kayak, say one kilometre. The >paddle itself must be irrelevant. > >If you move a certain weight through a certain distance, laws of physics >will tell you exactly how much energy is needed. It's irrelevant whether you >are using a diesel engine, steam power, or man power. He is wrong. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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