The question has arisen about the suitability of Goretex and whether or not salt actually damages the garment; The following is a link to the Gwaii Haanas NPR, Canada which advises against the use of gortex in their environment. http://fas.sfu.ca/parkscan/gwaii/prep.htm, STATES: >> >Raingear. "Breathable" fabrics such as Gore-Tex do not work well in this >> >>environment. Bring heavy-duty rubberized or vinyl gear. If you do a lot >> >of >paddling, it's probably worth investing in a waterproof paddling >> >jacket with >neoprene or velcro cuffs. >> >> What is wrong with Goretex? My drysuit is made of Goretex. Seems to work >> OK to me. > Dave Kruger responded, attesting to the suitability of Kokatat's gortex rain garmets: >They are repeating one of the old myths about Goretex. I have paddled >for a total of 6 weeks in the Charlottes, now, with some very rainy days >in there, using a Goretex paddling jacket exclusively (Kokatat). I also >have used the same style of garment down here, in some real downpours. >Seems to keep me dry (but see below). > >At the end of my '96 Charlottes trip, my first one had failed at the >outer edges of the seam tape -- which Kokatat said was a very unusual >failure, even considering the four seasons of use I had gotten out of >it. The second one is going strong. Kokatat replaced the first one for >the cost of seals ($40, I think). > >Kokatat says to be sure to rinse the garment every day of use -- to >remove excess salt buildup. Use fresh water if you have it, salt if no >fresh is available. It was my understanding that salt did not damage Goretex. Perhaps you woule be kind enough to disabuse us on the suitability of goretex and how well it stands up to salt. Thanks Robert *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-09-01 20:50:48 EDT, rcline_at_onramp.net writes: << It was my understanding that salt did not damage Goretex. Perhaps you woule be kind enough to disabuse us on the suitability of goretex and how well it stands up to salt. >> Not sure who's quoting whom any more --- but, when I asked one of the Gortex folks' lead engineers about this a year or so ago at a conference they conceded that they'd initially --- like six years ago? --- had some problem with salt water closing down the pores of the fabric. Today's fabric has none of these problems, according to the same sources (this was a military survival gear conference, but the fabric is the same --- just not as colorful). But it's probably a good idea to rinse gear off in clean, fresh water when it's had some hard use, anyway --- just as you'd do with a PFD or your boat itself --- to keep it functional. There seems to be two issues here --- the breathability issue in salt environments, which Goretex seems to have fixed, and the functionality issue which is always improved by keeping gear clean. Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-09-01 20:50:48 EDT, rcline_at_onramp.net writes: << It was my understanding that salt did not damage Goretex. Perhaps you woule be kind enough to disabuse us on the suitability of goretex and how well it stands up to salt. >> Not sure who's quoting whom any more --- but, when I asked one of the Gortex folks' lead engineers about this a year or so ago at a conference they conceded that they'd initially --- like six years ago? --- had some problem with salt water closing down the pores of the fabric. Today's fabric has none of these problems, according to the same sources (this was a military survival gear conference, but the fabric is the same --- just not as colorful). But it's probably a good idea to rinse gear off in clean, fresh water when it's had some hard use, anyway --- just as you'd do with a PFD or your boat itself --- to keep it functional. There seems to be two issues here --- the breathability issue in salt environments, which Goretex seems to have fixed, and the functionality issue which is always improved by keeping gear clean. Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
<< It was my understanding that salt did not damage Goretex. Perhaps you woule be kind enough to disabuse us on the suitability of goretex and how well it stands up to salt. >> the reason for the current advice to rinse your goretex gear comes from the fact that salt attracts water (remember how the salt in your shaker becomes a solid mass in humid weather). if your dry gear is encrusted with salt, it will attract enough water to significantly dampen the outer layer of fabric. this wet layer will then require a higher vapor pressure inside the suit to force your sweat out through the goretex pores, i.e. you'll dry out more slowly. this is the same reason why it is worthwhile renewing the durable water repellency (DWR) when it fades - you'll feel drier and more comfortable inside the suit but even if completely wet, or under water the goretex suit will still breath. the pores in the goretex are much smaller than the salt molecules, so that there is no way for salt to directly contaminate, clog, or alter the performance of the goretex membrane. george ruta northcountry kayak 518-677-3040 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Renewing the Durable Water Repellancy to Goretex: Is this owner maintenance or a factory return issue? Robert George Ruta wrote: >it will >attract enough water to significantly dampen the outer layer of fabric. this >wet layer will then require a higher vapor pressure inside the suit to force >your sweat out through the goretex pores, i.e. you'll dry out more slowly. >this is the same reason why it is worthwhile renewing the durable water >repellency (DWR) when it fades - you'll feel drier and more comfortable inside *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Geruta_at_aol.com wrote: > the reason for the current advice to rinse your goretex gear comes from the > fact that salt attracts water (remember how the salt in your shaker becomes a > solid mass in humid weather). if your dry gear is encrusted with salt, it will > attract enough water to significantly dampen the outer layer of fabric. this > wet layer will then require a higher vapor pressure inside the suit to force > your sweat out through the goretex pores, i.e. you'll dry out more slowly. This is just part of the reason salt on Goretex is bad news, I believe. See below for the rest of the story. > this is the same reason why it is worthwhile renewing the durable water > repellency (DWR) when it fades - you'll feel drier and more comfortable inside > the suit but even if completely wet, or under water the goretex suit will > still breath. the pores in the goretex are much smaller than the salt > molecules, so that there is no way for salt to directly contaminate, clog, or > alter the performance of the goretex membrane. George is correct re: the DWR: it makes water "bead up" on the outside of the garment, increasing the rate vapor can move through the garment. I believe it is not true, however, that the pores in Goretex are much smaller than salt "molecules." Salt molecules are about the same size as water molecules. The micropores in Goretex are something like 10 - 100 times larger than an individual water molecule, and prevent the passage of water droplets becuse the PTFE layer is very hydrophobic -- water hating -- so when a droplet nestles up against the layer, it can not wick through the layer. It is the latter which MIGHT account for any loss in waterproofness if salt is encrusted on/in the PTFE layer -- for the reasons George states above: water IS attracted to salt, and the salt MIGHT form a "bridge" through the PTFE barrier, allowing leakage. (I'm doing a little educated guessing here -- I did not get this from Kokatat.) I know for sure that use on salt water seems to accelerate break down of the DWR barrier/coating on the outside of a Goretex garment. Only a couple days are required on salt water, while a new/freshly treated garment retains the "beading up" effect of the DWR for about a dozen (or more) uses on fresh water. Could be my use of the garments, however -- what do others find? Oh, BTW, Robert, to renew the DWR: apply a warm iron (just at the lower range of the steam setting) to the INSIDE of the garment (not the seals). This works a couple times, then you need to reapply the DWR. Nikwax makes a spray which works well. Avoid Scotchgard -- it has silicones in it. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR sea kayaker/chemist *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
i've been away, so maybe this has been answered. it is owner maintenance. several companies make products for use on goretex. only one i recall offhand is by nikwax. problem is that you need to heat them after spraying them on or washing them in. the usual advice to throw in drier doesn't work with gasketed suits, ironing them on low temp is next best. george ruta northcountry kayak 518-677-3040 In a message dated 98-09-02 15:59:56 EDT, rcline_at_onramp.net writes: << Renewing the Durable Water Repellancy to Goretex: Is this owner maintenance or a factory return issue? Robert George Ruta wrote: >it will >attract enough water to significantly dampen the outer layer of fabric. this >wet layer will then require a higher vapor pressure inside the suit to force >your sweat out through the goretex pores, i.e. you'll dry out more slowly. >this is the same reason why it is worthwhile renewing the durable water >repellency (DWR) when it fades - you'll feel drier and more comfortable inside *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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