John Winters wrote: 1. The waterline lengths of many of the shorter sea kayaks (Coaster, Speedee, etc.) are actually quite long relative to the overall length (i.e. short overhangs in the bow and stern) whereas many "long" sea kayaks have long overhangs. For example the 20' Looksha II has a waterline length of 16.16' so the overhangs are approximately 20% of it length. For comparison the Coaster is at 13.44' is 12.76' on the waterline and its overhangs are approximately 5% of its length. So, when comparing lengths it pays to look at the waterline length rather than the overall length.... I think John hit an important point here. I've noticed a lot of long kayaks have bows that overhang the water as much as two feet. But all the discussion about speed trials, hull speed, etc. are missing the point to some extent. It is overall performance and efficiency in a wide variety of conditions that is important. This is why I keep harping on the Coaster; it kind of stands alone in this respect. For example, when surfing downwind in short, steep seas, the Coaster can far exceed it's "hull speed". Because of the relatively low volume stern and short length it fits nicely in the wave and because of it's long waterline (relative to overall length) it holds it's speed well. This is all true to some extent for other sea kayaks, but a boat with a long, narrow, low volume bow will tend to bury it's bow in the water when traveling downwind, thereby slowing the boat and causing it to pivot on the bow. Dan pointed out that even whitewater kayaks can be paddled at 3 to 4 knots. And of course they are very maneuverable; however they require considerably more effort to paddle on the open sea than a boat like the Coaster. Anyone who doubts this should get out on a stormy day in their rodeo boat (or even a Dancer) and try paddling a few miles! In a Coaster you would be having fun (assuming you have the skills to paddle storm seas); in the whitewater river kayak, you'd be cursing. John Lull *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, John Lull wrote: > > Dan pointed out that even whitewater kayaks can be paddled at 3 to 4 > knots. And of course they are very maneuverable; however they require > considerably more effort to paddle on the open sea than a boat like the > Coaster. Anyone who doubts this should get out on a stormy day in their > rodeo boat (or even a Dancer) and try paddling a few miles! In a > Coaster you would be having fun (assuming you have the skills to paddle > storm seas); in the whitewater river kayak, you'd be cursing. > > John Lull So why exactly do whitewater kayaks require more effort? I confess to never having paddled a river boat in rough ocean conditions. Is it tracking? Whitewater kayaks have no tracking, however course corrections are effortless as a result, so a paddler on top of technique should have no trouble keeping on course. At least, this is what I have always suspected, but have never tested personally. Is it lack of speed? Whitewater kayaks are significantly slower than even a coaster at reasonable amounts of paddling effort. Also waterline length plays a relatively much greater role when trying to catch windwaves than in simple straight line paddling (ask me about my experience at Skookumchuk). Is it volume distribution? The bows of whitewater kayaks are made for punching through holes and stopper waves, but there is nothing like this in the average sea condtions that I think John is referring to. So I would guess that a whitewater kayak would provide a very wet ride whereas the coast has a high volume, anti-pearl bow for riding over waves, not through them. So there are three guesses of mine. Can anyone elucidate? kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Lull wrote: > Dan pointed out that even whitewater kayaks can be paddled at 3 to 4 > knots. And of course they are very maneuverable; however they require > considerably more effort to paddle on the open sea than a boat like > the Coaster. Anyone who doubts this should get out on a stormy day in > their rodeo boat (or even a Dancer) and try paddling a few miles! In > a Coaster you would be having fun (assuming you have the skills to > paddle storm seas); in the whitewater river kayak, you'd be cursing. I suspect that this is true, and was not seriously suggesting that whitewater boats make good sea kayaks. But I do think that it would be fun to play around a bit with this approach--to explore its limits. This might also shed some light on the questions that Kevin has raised. You certainly present some very persuasive arguments on behalf of the Coaster. Some (but not all) of the benefits to which you refer can also be achieved in a longer boat with substantial rocker, which is the approach that I have taken. I have often thought of adding a Coaster to my "fleet", and may still do so. But I must heartily disagree with you about the looks. It is about as ugly as a boat can be. :-) Still, I suppose that one comes to appreciate the looks over time, or at least learns to look beyond the surface ugliness to see the inner beauty. Happy paddling! Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:15 AM -0700 10/13/98, K. Whilden wrote: >On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, John Lull wrote: > >> >> Dan pointed out that even whitewater kayaks can be paddled at 3 to 4 >> knots. And of course they are very maneuverable; however they require >> considerably more effort to paddle on the open sea than a boat like the >> Coaster. Anyone who doubts this should get out on a stormy day in their >> rodeo boat (or even a Dancer) and try paddling a few miles! In a >> Coaster you would be having fun (assuming you have the skills to paddle >> storm seas); in the whitewater river kayak, you'd be cursing. >> >> John Lull > >So why exactly do whitewater kayaks require more effort? I confess to >never having paddled a river boat in rough ocean conditions. Is it >tracking? Whitewater kayaks have no tracking, however course corrections >are effortless as a result, so a paddler on top of technique should have >no trouble keeping on course. At least, this is what I have always >suspected, but have never tested personally. Is it lack of speed? >Whitewater kayaks are significantly slower than even a coaster at >reasonable amounts of paddling effort. Also waterline length plays a >relatively much greater role when trying to catch windwaves than in simple >straight line paddling (ask me about my experience at Skookumchuk). Is it >volume distribution? The bows of whitewater kayaks are made for punching >through holes and stopper waves, but there is nothing like this in the >average sea condtions that I think John is referring to. So I would guess >that a whitewater kayak would provide a very wet ride whereas the coast >has a high volume, anti-pearl bow for riding over waves, not through them. My complaint when paddling a WW boat on open water has had more to do with comfort than anything else. Just paddling straight ahead can get hard on the back. I can last alot longer in the same boat on a river because I am doing more different things other than just paddling straight ahead. Leaning back and surfing a wave is easier than continuous paddling. A sea kayak is generally fitted to be more comfortable. I don't find it hard to keep the boat going straight. If I stop paddling a WW boat will swing off course and slow down more quickly, but not enough to bother me. I do find my natural paddling cadence keeps me pretty much near the top speed of my WW boat and I would probably be more efficient paddling at a lower speed. But when I do, I tend to start slouching backwards which again is not very comfortable. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6167 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin wrote; >> >So why exactly do whitewater kayaks require more effort? Reasons why a white water boat might be slower than a sea kayak would be (in no particular order since the degree of each will vary between boats) 1. Shorter waterline length. 2. Even shorter effective waterline length, 3. Blunt angle of entry. 4. Generally low prismatic coeffcients. 5. Steep buttocks (some boats) that can cause separation drag. 6. Longitudinal Center of buoyancy forward of 50% coupled with fine sterns which can cause large trim changes that alter form coefficients . 7. Large waterplane coefficients that lead to significant lift which is a waste of energy unless one can plane. 8. Full forward sections can cause premature (relative to sea kayaks) pounding and pitching. 9. Lack of directional stability can require greater effort expended on control. In addition, when the boat travels with significant leeway through the water its drag can be greater than when traveling true. There may be other less significant reasons such as higher wetted surface but that too varies with the boat. All of the above presupposes speeds similar to sea kayak cruising speeds. Those of you with old issues of Sea Kayaker can read the resistance figures for a whitewater kayak in their first boat test report. I don't recall that they identified the boat. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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