John Winters posted some provocative thoughts to this list under the headings re: new certification concept; and what is rough weather performance. John hits both issues right on the head in that what matters most are the talents and inclinations of the paddler and the relative responsiveness vs. forgiveness of his or her boat. Some boats require a long learning curve to achieve the skills that allow the paddler to get the most out of them and be one with them while other boats do not. A boat's forgiveness is often overlooked in speaking of skills and operating in rough conditions. I recall Derek Hutchinson once writing or saying that the furthest you could expect to paddle would depend on how long you could stay awake. Implied in this statement is how long you could keep your boat upright through skills and alertness. But many paddlers have taken epic voyages that far exceeded their wake time such as did Ed Gillette in his crossing to Hawaii and did Dr. Lindemann in his crossing of the Atlantic. Why? Their boats were forgiving and did not require their constant alertness and actions to keep going and to stay up. I think John has a valid approach when he speaks of avoiding classifications of certification and instead have needed skills laid out clearly and have paddlers pick and choose among them according to the type of boat and paddling they will be doing. For example, John is correct in saying that a Klepper paddler would not need to know how to roll. That particular boat can only be rolled under controlled situations, virtually a circus act that only a few superb rollers could carry off, and hardly one that could be relied on in real life conditions as a self-rescue technique. That Klepper paddler might want to spend more time developing an efficient paddle stroke because that boat does require good form to move well. That Klepper paddler might also be made rudely aware of the folly of going out without air bags filling the holds of his boat by having him swamp the boat and see that it would have not enough free board to ever hope of emptying unless he has such air bags (a hardshell with bulkheads hardly ever would see this as a problem). That Klepper paddler might also want to learn the pecularities of his re-entry in case of a capsize versus what a hardshell paddler would have to do. (I would also think the person would want to learn speed assembly tips to get that time down to single digits in order to have more time on the water.) The above are some of the realities and needs of a Klepper paddler that in little respect represent the realities/needs of a Norkapp paddler. The BCU program appears to be basically aimed at narrower boats (which by the way would include something like the Feathercraft Khatsalano, a folding kayak that behaves more like a Greenland boat). While the skills would benefit any hardsheller, some hardshells would not fair well in the BCU certification such as some of the wider Northwest boats which are difficult to roll and scull because of their width. Paddlers in such Northwest boats may want to work on other skills such as a reliable, fast re-entry in a capsize and also learning how to position their boats quickly in order to avoid being swamped, i.e. better, faster turning skills that would work in their less responsive boats. I don't think, for example, that any certification program aims at helping a paddler develop the skills to keep a poor tracking boat going straight. Early on, I bought a Klepper single, which I decided to paddle without a rudder (weight and extra assembly times were my motivation). But the boat has been known to handle Class III Whitewater because it is so easy to turn. Maybe too easy as it would not track well at all. Over time I learned to control the boat's tracking through an arsenal of almost unconscious techniques without once having to stroke twice on the same side to correct for poor tracking. Someone with that type of boat would want to learn those techniques whereas some one in a superbly good tracking boat would not need such skill. I know of no certification program that aims at developing a sustainable, efficient powerful forward stroke. Few instructors spend much time on this as they rush through explanation of the stroke to get on to other matters such as rolling, bracing, etc. And I don't recall seeing much time devoted to a good forward stroke in any of the sea kayaking books. An exception is my book because this is something I strongly felt you need to develop in order to move this kind of boat. I took the space that ordinarily is devoted to rolling in other books and used it to work on several pages of small print on developing a powerful forward stroke. Let me get back to learning curves, at the risk of making this overally long. In order to get comfortable in some narrower boats, you need to spend a lot of time in the saddle. I remember when I was considering a Nordkapp 10 years ago, an instructor saying that if I wasn't prepared to spend a year at it paddling at least once a week in winter and several times a week in season, I should avoid this boat. I have a friend who I know spent a good part of year following such advice and constantly practicing bracing and rolling until one day he did finally get comfortable in the boat. A Feathercraft K-1 would have you at that level of comfort in a day or so; a Feathercraft Khatsalano (assuming little paddling experience) would take considerably longer. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:15 PM 10/4/98 -0700, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: >John Winters posted some provocative thoughts to this list under the >headings re: > >I know of no certification program that aims at developing a >sustainable, efficient powerful forward stroke. Few instructors spend >much time on this as they rush through explanation of the stroke to get >on to other matters such as rolling, bracing, etc. >ralph diaz >-- ralph One problem I see i the money involved in teaching, although it is not a whole lot they seem to want to teach a beginner how to roll almost before they can paddle. They get paid for each type of instruction.Forward stroke, braces,leans etc... I sold a fellow a kayak and went thru the basics that he would need to have fun and be safe and told him to get a good instructor to improve his paddling . Two weeks later this instructor was trying to teach him to roll. This new kayaker did not have a good forward stroke,lean, brace or any of the other skills he needed to be comfortable or a proficient paddler. He is 68 years young. I keep telling him he needed to practice the basics till they were second nature with wet exit and reentry skills (which he has not worked on) because he wants to learn to roll first. Now I do not blame this instructor on teaching a student what they want to know but being able to roll with bad skills doesn't make up for anything except maybe being able to roll up after a bad brace, when with a good brace he would not need to roll in most situations. This is just one example and maybe not a good one .There should be some kind of requirements to pass to the next stage and as off as some of the BCU requirements seem to be it is the best out there at this time. Maybe we ought to start a AKU (America's Kayak Union) ,see I don't begrudge the Canadians at all so I include them to, and do things the right and proper way with exceptions made for hard and soft kayaks. OK I thought it up you do the rest!! ha ha Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:14 PM 10/4/98 -0400, dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: Now I do not blame this instructor on teaching a >student >what they want to know but being able to roll with bad skills doesn't make >up for >anything except maybe being able to roll up after a bad brace, when with a >good >brace he would not need to roll in most situations. This is just one example >and maybe not a good one . Just my 2c. I've never had any formal instruction so keep that in mind. I paddled for 3 years with basically no skills other than getting in and out of the boat, though I did practice paddle float reentry. I couldnt brace worth a damn until I learned how to roll, then I was bracing, sculling, leaning, and much much much more confident and proficient in the basic skills. Heck, I didnt want to lean or brace before I could roll. I would have gotten wet. Not claiming to have any answers (heck I still dont have a forward stroke I like) or to know the best order in which these skills should be taught, I just enjoy friendly discussions and I sense one approaching. ;-) Wayne Wayne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:22 PM 10/4/98 -0500, wayne steffens wrote: >At 01:14 PM 10/4/98 -0400, dldecker_at_mediaone.net wrote: > Now I do not blame this instructor on teaching a >>student >>what they want to know but being able to roll with bad skills doesn't make >>up for >>anything except maybe being able to roll up after a bad brace, when with a >>good >>brace he would not need to roll in most situations. This is just one example >>and maybe not a good one . > >Just my 2c. I've never had any formal instruction so keep that in mind. I >paddled for 3 years with basically no skills other than getting in and out >of the boat, though I did practice paddle float reentry. > >I couldnt brace worth a damn until I learned how to roll, then I was >bracing, sculling, leaning, and much much much more confident and >proficient in the basic skills. Heck, I didnt want to lean or brace before >I could roll. I would have gotten wet. > > Not claiming to have any answers (heck I still dont have a forward stroke >I like) or to know the best order in which these skills should be taught, I >just enjoy and I sense one approaching. ;-) > > >Wayne Kayaking is a wet sport some times and I do hope there is friendly discussions thats what this list is all about . We will see!!!!!! Now I am not saying that you should not learn to roll and it does give you confidence but so does haveing a good reliable brace, Now rsk we are talking non white water kayaking, and everyone see's rolling as the ultimate in kayaking skills which it is but it is like driving at rush hour when you have only practiced backing the car out of the driveway ( why so many 16 year olds die in car accidents). Every body ought to learn it if they can but after your basic skills are good, ok I am off my soap box. Next Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: >So, controllability can be active or passive in nature. Were I making a >long open water crossing a boat that could take care of itself even when I >was tired or stupid might be best. If I am playing along the coast a boat >that responds to every lean or stroke might be more fun and, consequently, >"better". Ralph Diaz wrote: >Let me get back to learning curves, at the risk of making this overally >long. In order to get comfortable in some narrower boats, you need to >spend a lot of time in the saddle. I remember when I was considering a >Nordkapp 10 years ago, an instructor saying that if I wasn't prepared to >spend a year at it paddling at least once a week in winter and several >times a week in season, I should avoid this boat. I have a friend who I >know spent a good part of year following such advice and constantly >practicing bracing and rolling until one day he did finally get >comfortable in the boat. A Feathercraft K-1 would have you at that >level of comfort in a day or so; a Feathercraft Khatsalano (assuming >little paddling experience) would take considerably longer. > If it is true that long saddle time is required to get comfortable in the Nordkapp, does that imply, to use J Winters' term, that the Nordkapp requires active rather than passive control? But isn't the Nordkapp famous for long distance travel in rough conditions, rather than for playing along the coast? Does it take a year to get used to the Nordkapp because it does not handle well? Certainly, after a year in the Nordkapp, one would become a much better paddler. But wouldn't a even Nordkapp trained paddler then be better off, on a long open water crossing, in a more forgiving boat. To paraphrase J Winters, even a Nordkapp trained paddler could get tired or stupid. I just use the Nordkapp as an example. Never paddled one. But two boats I have experience with in 20 knot down weather paddles are the Arluk II and Solstice GTS. Both are 22 " beam, 18' and 17'7" length respectively. I like both boats but the GTS is quite a bit easier handling down wind, I.e., more forgiving. This seems to me "better". What advantage is to be gained from the less forgiving boat? Jerru *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
OK, I'd like to contribute my penny's worth to this discussion. I haven't really though this all out, so I'll be shooting from the hip on this one. First of all, I think that learning any kayaking skills at all is a good thing. I don't care what order folks want to learn them in, just as long as they are trying to progress. I have always been a strong proponent of skills over equipment. But I have found it difficult to keep peoples interest while working on the brace on flat water. If you really want to learn how to brace then teach them the roll, or better yet, throw them into the surf zone. You can make the argument that one needs to know how to brace before learning to roll or entering the surf, but at least in my experience as an instructor, it's really much easier the other way around. In the surf you have to brace. If you blow it, you get to swim in, empty your boat, launch and try it again. It makes for a pretty powerful incentive to get it right. And as far as the roll goes, all it is, is a glorified brace. If you can roll, then you can brace. On the issue of instructor certification, I'm not certified so you can take what I say as sour grapes if you like. But I have met certified instructors (ACA) which did not have the skills of my average students! Anybody can teach kayaking. I had one person who got a job teaching kayaking up north who signed up for my class because they thought it might be nice to know something about how a kayak worked before they started their job. I'm serious! I think that if a certification program is going to exist then anyone who achieves instructor level should know how to roll, and be comfortable and polished with most of the other popular rescues. An instructor level kayaker should have some experience in wind and waves, and on the ocean. An instructor, at least, should be a cut above the average paddler. As far as the average paddler goes, I just don't think any kind of certification is necessary. If you look at the diving industry where they have certification for everything, I think the only people who really benefit are the shops who have yet another excuse to charge people for something. Now I'll probably wake up tomorrow and really regret having said all this, but, oh well. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
dana wrote: >>> I keep telling him he needed to practice the basics till they were second nature with wet exit and reentry skills (which he has not worked on) because he wants to learn to roll first. Now I do not blame this instructor on teaching a student what they want to know but being able to roll with bad skills doesn't make up for anything except maybe being able to roll up after a bad brace, when with a good brace he would not need to roll in most situations. <<<< i do not see that working on one skill inhibits learning others. an awful lot of paddling skills are inter-related, especially recovery/bracing strokes and rolling. developing boat control muscle memory helps progress bracing skills to rolling skills. psychologically being able to roll inspires the confidence which allows bracing in increasingly challenging conditions. having said that, i wholeheartedly agree that all too little effort is put into developing effective foward paddling skills(which can make a trip more enjoyable and safer) in many teaching settings. part of the difficulty is that many people do not care to practice, practice, practice (including me!) so that interspersing work on several different strokes, especially on other than flat calm water helps keep a student's interest and enjoyment level up. one good lesson should provide material to refine and make intuitive during many subsequent weeks of paddling. george ruta northcountry kayak 518-677-3040 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry wrote; (SNIP of Ralph's comments) >If it is true that long saddle time is required to get comfortable in the >Nordkapp, does that imply, to use J Winters' term, that the Nordkapp >requires active rather than passive control? But isn't the Nordkapp famous >for long distance travel in rough conditions, rather than for playing along >the coast? Yes, but in the cases I know of the people involved were rather remarkable and the voyages were along the coast (Paul Caffyn for example). I think open water voyages have differnet requirements. > >Does it take a year to get used to the Nordkapp because it does not handle >well? Certainly, after a year in the Nordkapp, one would become a much >better paddler. But wouldn't a even Nordkapp trained paddler then be better >off, on a long open water crossing, in a more forgiving boat. To paraphrase >J Winters, even a Nordkapp trained paddler could get tired or stupid. I am not sure about the time involved but I suspect paddling a more challenging boat does improve ones skills. On the other hand, I suspect most people would agree that each individual objective and person has different requirements and that the skills required fit into a different heirarchy. I believe, for instance, that my experience sailing 505's, Finns and Flying Dutchman sailboats made me a much better keel boat sailor but I know plenty of people who never ever sailed a dingy who sailed rings around me in keel boats. Learning to right or keep upright a sailing dinghy is important if one sails dinghies but the skill looses its importance if one sails a keel boat. >I just use the Nordkapp as an example. Never paddled one. But two boats I >have experience with in 20 knot down weather paddles are the Arluk II and >Solstice GTS. Both are 22 " beam, 18' and 17'7" length respectively. I >like both boats but the GTS is quite a bit easier handling down wind, I.e., >more forgiving. This seems to me "better". What advantage is to be gained >from the less forgiving boat? The "advantage" has to do with objectives. The question I would ask would be, "What does the Arluk do better than the Solstice and when do you find that more important to you than downwind handling in 20 knot winds?" Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I paddle a Nordkapp (1995 and 1998 models) and I don't find it particularly challenging. When the surface of the water resembles my wife's Matag, the Nordkapp seems to be extremely forgiving!. In other boats, I'd be fighting to stay upright, but the Nordkapp (and I'm sure many other similar boats) just barrels through. I don't think it takes any longer to learn to paddle a Nordkapp, then any other boat. It may seem more tender then other boats, in flat water (where most folks demo boats) but it's shines in confused seas and rough water. I believe that PERCEIVED stability, is always a dual edged sword, and one has to select a hull for the conditions one intends to paddle. I made the mistake of taking my boat down the Loxahatchee River Saturday. I'm still hurting! An 18 foot Nordkapp was not designed to scoot around cypress knees, between trees and around corners... A nice short squat boat would have been ideal... cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hiyall! My penny's worth to this discussion: Learning the habits of my new kayak (Nordkapp) started with capsizing with it last May into a sea water of 4 degrees centigrades. Kinda got my motivation to learn to a new level, you know ;-) and to pay attention to wear my dry-suit... (Though I have been a very active sea-kayaker during the last four years). Started expeditions last June after few shorter two-day solo trips, longest taking 2 and half weeks. Found the Nordkapp a real pleasure to paddle, especially when fully packed and even within rougher weather conditions. I am weighing 70 kilos and I am rather small (175 centimetres) - so I do think that this rather narrow kayak is perfect for me. And it did not take year or two to learn. Earnestly: the instructor´s advise given to Ralph Diaz ("... an instructor saying that if I wasn't prepared to spend a year at it paddling at least once a week in winter and several times a week in season, I should avoid this boat...") sounds really exaggerated to me. To me, Nordkapp "handles" well. Again, an old comment: it is the kayaker, not the kayak - find a suitable one for yourself. Anyway: I do strongly agree with John Winters. John is quite correct when commenting that paddling a more challenging boat does improve ones skills (whatever a "challenging" boat is..) - I would never developed my strokes without such a responding kayak, or paid more attention to body moves (waist, hips, muscles in legs and in my back) when meeting waves. [Really, not a natural-born talent :-)] Cheers, Ari Saarto "Home of the Traditional & Famous Scandinavian Skinny-dipping [TM]" Finland - Europe GSM +358 - 50 - 526 5892 fax. +358 - 3 - 828 2815 e-mail: asaarto_at_lpt.fi *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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