George wrote; --Large SNIP) >i am curious as to how bcu training came to be seen by some of you as skill >training for hot-shots devoid of sense, as that is contrary to my experience >of several different bcu folk in several different settings. I am not sure if that opinion has any universality. On the other hand, the image of the hair shirt BCU coach sits firmly in the back of my mind. I suspect the image comes from impressions given by both instructors and writers that the British model of boat and the skills associated with it constitute "real" kayaking. My perception on this gets coloured by my role as a designer of boats. To me the job priority of fitting boats to paddlers outranks fitting paddlers to boats. Folding boats, hard-shells, SOT's, and all the other configurations have validity and if they require some special skills or do not require others then instruction should (I believe) cater to that rather than insist upon a rigid hierarchy of paddling skills. The idea that rolling skills might be essential to developing a good brace could be considered a case in point. Many canoeists develop a rather competent brace without ever learning how to roll. Some learn without ever even capsizing. Nevertheless, many sea kayaking instructors insist on teaching rolling first and then bracing. A lady in my club who can roll quite nicely admitted that, not only could she not brace instinctively but she had never been taught to brace at all. I do not think her experience either unique or universal but significant nonetheless. The amount of time and space spent on rolling in courses and books appears to dominate the time spent on other more frequently used or needed techniques. Indeed, some certifications cannot be obtained without being able to roll even though it may be impossible to do in the boat chosen. There may be a message in the emphasis on rolling (perhaps unintentional). If rolling is an essential skill, then what of boats that cannot be rolled? Are those boats unsuitable? The evidence suggests otherwise. Nevertheless, kayak buyers frequently ask me. "How easy is it to roll that boat?" as if rolling were an essential part of kayaking. I wonder how many people have been discouraged from buying boats that were more suited to their needs just because the boat could not be easily rolled. Certainly instructors who insist that a certain type of boat be used in their courses make a statement about boats. All of this disturbs me because I sense that people are being forced to fit a mold rather than instruction and boats being forced to fit people. No doubt many instructors and courses exist with a focus centred upon the person and that person's individual goals but I suspect that that may be the exception rather than the rule. Sorry for being so long winded on this. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin you have just pretty much described the BCU four star award (competent sea paddler). The five star award is for a competent experienced leader. Five star Peter will need to know more than just the basics, he is in charge of the safety of a group of four star Joe's. I don't think the BCU totally ignores the Greenland paddle (maybe the instructors/ examiners are) but a lot of coaches (level five) I know in the UK are also teaching paddling with "lollypop sticks". the BCU syllabus for example does not state exactly how to paddle forwards, but says you have to demonstrate a efficient forward stroke. As you know if you put 10 experienced paddlers from a different states/ continents together you will see about 8 different styles of forward paddling strokes all of these can be efficient. I've also come across a lot of "instructors" who are not open to new developments in our sport, these will not accept someone with a different paddle style. Groetjes, Len (BCU Coach level four) > -----Original Message----- > From: K. Whilden [SMTP:kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu] > Sent: 03 October 1998 01:39 > To: Julio MacWilliams > Cc: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] New certification concept (was: > BASK&clubs) > > Julio, > I think we pretty much agree on the level of relevance of the ACA. I > personally would go so far as to give a succint summary of their sea > kayaking certification... > > It's too wimpy. > > The BCU is much better as far as technical skills go, but again there > are > problems. They are too stuffy. Things like never paddling alone or > completely ignoring greenland paddles bother me. > > I wonder what the good people on this list would come up with if we > decided to start our own certification program. > > Perhaps I'll get the ball rolling... > > I think the the five star rating of the BCU is too complicated, and > leaves > too much room for mediocrity at the lower levels. I would propose > having > only a single rating, and then add specialized components as needed. > > For instance, Joe Seakayaker has an official Paddlewise certification > of > competency with specialty in greenland paddles and paddling open coast > w/ > surf. Or something like that. > > The basic certification would be much more comprehensive of the basic > skills. I'll list a few, and then perhaps others could add more. > - Basic paddle strokes: Forward, sweeps, rudders, duffek > - Basic skills: edge control, edged turns, sculling, high and low > brace > - basic rescues: Wet-exit, assisted (several kinds), solo w/ paddle > float > - basic eskimo roll: I would go so far as to require a roll for > certification, others might balk so much that I might have to > compromise. > But we should at least give the message that this is the best kind of > rescue, period, and that it is not really that hard to learn. > - basic navigation skills: Read a chart, compass, avoid shipping > lanes, > - basic tide and current awareness > - basic hypothermia awareness > - basic boat packing skills > > Well, that's not a bad start for the BASIC certification. The idea > here is > to make it somewhat difficult, instead of giving one away with every > full > tank of gas. Another idea is to keep it simple -- one level is all > that is > needed to make sure everyone is a competent kayaker for the level of > paddling that majority of sea kayakers typically attempt. This would > really increase safety in general. Then there are the specialized > ratings that can be used for aspects of sea kayaking that the majority > of > the sea kayaking public would not typically attempt, such as rock > gardening, open coast paddling, tide rip playing, greenland paddle > technique, surfing, whitewater rivers, etc... There are plenty of > people > who do want to learn these things, and it would be good address each > one > directly and specifically, because they are all quite dangerous in > different ways. (greenland paddles ARE dangerously fun...) > > Well, what do you think... can we run with this and turn it into > something > substantial? This is a wonderful email list, with many many > outstanding > contributors. I don't see why we couldn't formalize a certification > program, even if it just goes on the web page for the general public > to > read. let's be the Linux of sea kayaking. :) > ___________________ > > / Kevin Whilden \ > |Dept. of Geosciences \___ > |University of Washington \ > |kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu| > \________________________/ > > On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Julio MacWilliams wrote: > > > Yes, the ACA certifies instructors for coastal kayaking. However, > > it seems that you do not need to know how to roll, nor weather > patterns, > > nor be very proficient in surf and rough seas, to get certified. > > > > Rather, you have to be able to show students how to make the ideal > > forward stroke, and a couple of drag side strokes, with a european > paddle. > > Also you have to be able to show students the ACA concept of safety, > > which does not get to the level of the stuff that we often discuss > > in this list. > > > > Because of this, someone like me, would have to do less of > practicing rolls, > > rough sea rescues, navigation, Greenland strokes and tricks, in > order > > to prepare in the next months for the certification exam. > > > > Now I have to train for what the ACA thinks is sea kayaking in order > > to get their certificate. > > > > I wonder if the American Sailing Association would me more qualified > > to certify sea kayaking instructors than the ACA. > > > > - Julio > > > > (yes, I know I am igniting fire, but that should result in a healthy > > discussion) :-) > > > > > paddle. The ACA's great for some things and is one of the foremost > > > organizations for insturctor certification as you well know... > it's not a > > > _users_ group however. Which is kinna what I'm/we're dicsussing... > Some > > > have felt in the past that ACA and others like are a bit to > manufacter > > > orientated. > > > FWIW > > > ;) > > > Tom > > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Len Van Halm wrote: > > I've also come across a lot of "instructors" who are not open to new > developments in our sport, these will not accept someone with a > different paddle style. > > Groetjes, Len > (BCU Coach level four) > > ******** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > > ********************************************************************** Goeie dag Len and all, Are those the same *Instructors* who cannot stand the sight of a rudder and insist that you paddle a boat at a 40 degree angle ? ;-). groeten Eddie. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > I am not sure if that opinion has any universality. On the other hand, the > image of the hair shirt BCU coach sits firmly in the back of my mind. I > suspect the image comes from impressions given by both instructors and > writers that the British model of boat and the skills associated with it > constitute "real" kayaking. That is always something that has concerned me, the idea that only a certain kind of boat was sanctified and worthy of the Holy Grail. All others were just for non-paddlers and lesser individuals. For example, discussions earlier on whether sit-on-tops were real kayaks; they are and they are real fun to paddle to boot. For the most part, people who knock them, have not tried them. > My perception on this gets coloured by my role as a designer of boats. To > me the job priority of fitting boats to paddlers outranks fitting paddlers > to boats. Folding boats, hard-shells, SOT's, and all the other > configurations have validity and if they require some special skills or do > not require others then instruction should (I believe) cater to that rather > than insist upon a rigid hierarchy of paddling skills. I bet there are all kinds of nuances and skills specific to sit-on-tops that could be gleaned by any keen observer and then taught to SOT paddlers to their safety and satisfaction with their kayaks. I know and have written about the specific skills for folding kayakers. The SOT and FK paddlers get only a limited value in the courses that rigidly adhere to a certain approach. For example the taught way of emptying a swamped hardshell kayak (pulling it up upside down on the bow of the rescuing boat to empty it) is superfulous and meaningless for a SOT (s##t, it can't hold water!) and could do damage to a folding kayak (a better way of emptying a folding kayak is to turn it on its side where the sponson will lift the boat enough to get two/thirds of the cocpit empty). The technique taught for assisted rescue in which the rescuing boat's paddler places his paddle across both boats to assist to raft and lock both boats together is not that necessary if the folding kayak is doing the rescue (the folding one is so stable and with soft sponsoned sides that can take the banging around; all the rescuing paddler has to do is grab the victim's cockpit and that suffices). > There may be a message in the emphasis on rolling (perhaps unintentional). > If rolling is an essential skill, then what of boats that cannot be rolled? On a similar point, one guru was quoted in an article saying "If you can't roll, you are not a kayaker. You may be a nice person, but you are not a kayaker." I don't roll (although I certainly would like to learn and have come close and certainly will play at it again because it is fun), so I guess I am not a kayaker. Maybe I should change the name of my newsletter to Folding Nice Person. :-) > > All of this disturbs me because I sense that people are being forced to fit > a mold rather than instruction and boats being forced to fit people. No > doubt many instructors and courses exist with a focus centred upon the > person and that person's individual goals but I suspect that that may be > the exception rather than the rule. One guru/instructor used to insist that you must feather your paddle in order to participate in his class; feather or leave. This forced some people into an unaccustomed posture that could be dangerous for them. That rigid mindset I think comes from a lack of imagination and inventiveness. I would think that a savvy instructor would welcome the challenge of dealing with things unfamiliar to him rather. > > Sorry for being so long winded on this. You are not long winded at all. Of course, if I didn't agree with your premises, then you would be full of hot air. :-) Actually, I am glad that you bring these things up. And you haven't done any defending of canoes. There was a comment here earlier about has anyone canoed lately, a tongue-in-cheek statement as if canoeing was passe. But, for my money and observation, good canoeists (as opposed to the casual banging around type at summer camp) have a far more sophisticated, numerous and varied arsenal of paddle strokes than any kayaker. Watching a good canoeist in his or her paddle strokes is beautiful to behold. ralph diaz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Well, I have been hoping that some other ACA certified instructors are in the wings ready to answer some questions, but...maybe they are waiting for someone else to start! Since I recently publicized a course on this list, I guess I should rise to the bait. Teaching kayaking has gone from a full-time job/activity for me to 1/3 to half time in recent years (age?, who knows). I got my first certification for whitewater in about 1989 while in Idaho from a woman named Dana Olson-Elle. I really learned a lot in the course - not only in terms of peer review but just in terms of seeing how other people teach and picking up different tricks for my own bag. I found her to be very responsible and concerned with high standards. Rob Lesser sat in on the class as he was also concerned about standards. I re-certified a few years ago with Mary and Phil DeReimer and found their standards to be very strict - but also oriented towards performance. In the few years I had been away, many new nuances in technique had been developed. Also, they had taught in the southeast and brought some new ideas to the northwest. Because of these experiences, and for a few other reasons, I brought Cathy Piffath and Jeff Cooper to Washington for the coastal cert. I had the same experiences over again - while I've been teaching since 1984-ish, I stretched my bag of tricks, got great peer and instructor review and learned updated paddling techniques. One of the things the ACA focuses is on is teaching the different learning styles of students (thinkers, feelers, watchers, doers) and how to address them - like "deliver, demonstrate, do". Much focus is on "modeling" strokes for students and to this end much time is spent on strokes - not only doing them efficiently without wasted motion, but showing them. For this we use video review. The classic thing that comes out with the video, for example, is problems in the forward stroke. We've all heard to use more torso rotation, letting the stroke move through the body, utilizing the feet and thus use bigger more powerful muscles and not just the little arms. How many people have you seen tell you this, but not show any torso movement? Or if you point out "your torso isn't moving" they say things like - "oh yes it it, you just can't tell because my lifejacket is hiding the movement". The video, along with one-on-one coaching, is great for this. I actually had the pleasure of being invited to a USCKT coaching clinic for flatwater. We followed the athletes in the little motor boats while they did the forward stroke and I shot pictures of torsos in various stages of rotation just to see the the accentuated movement. With those athletes, you can also see the degree to which their legs are really pumping. At any rate, I found teaching people to teach great fun, and when working with Perception on dealer training and kid's clinics organized a ACA cert for dealers in Florida using Tim Bates from the Univ. of Minn at Diluth (coastal kayaking). Tim and Randy Carlson have developed a very sensible approach to teaching instructors. It does include a power forward as well as touring forward storke, all the braces, draws rescues and whatnot. While it is hard to assess common sense and judgement, trip planning, navigation, and on water leadership are incorporated. The goal is to satisy three areas to 80% (including showing three rolls in succesion) in order to be competent teaching beginners. So I have been working towards an IT status in Coastal Kayaking. It has been a long process and probably still will be. I've worked with and co-taught with maybe nine different IT's and have learned from all of them. I've found that what really seems to be the case in the ACA is that a lot of sharing goes on around the US (with trickles coming in from the BCU) so that if instructors branch out and audit other courses the technique base is always updated. Two other points to address - last spring two BCU coaches sat down with Randy at a course here in Washington and compared notes and found the two systems had a lot in common. Also, the ACA is introducing "modules" now that one can add-on to a cert - such as sufing, etc. This addresses regional differences in needs and conditions. Well, I hope I don't get flamed! But any constructive conversation is certainly welcome. If you would like to see the curriculum of the upcoming IDW, it is posted at http://www.viewit.com/KIX/ACA_Coastal_Kayak2.html ( put up a quick-and-dirty web page using an export program). Talk about rambling! Thanks, Andree | Hurley Design Communications-Web Site Creation and Implementation | | Bainbridge Island, ahurley_at_viewit.com -> http://www.viewit.com/HDC/| |New: http://www.kayakproshop.com/ - http://www.goanimal.com/ | | http://www.windridernw.com - http://www.viewit.com/OIWC/ | *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>>> My perception on this gets coloured by my role as a designer of boats. To me the job priority of fitting boats to paddlers outranks fitting paddlers to boats. Folding boats, hard-shells, SOT's, and all the other configurations have validity and if they require some special skills or do not require others then instruction should (I believe) cater to that rather than insist upon a rigid hierarchy of paddling skills. >>> I too an afternoon of private instruction with Linda Legg earlier this year. Linda lives in the next town and I think she probably exemplifies the BCU coach. We never even discussed rolling. Her emphasis during the 3 hour session was on paddle strokes, sculling and bracing. I have spent the past 6 months incorporating the wealth of information and skills she attempted to impart, into my day to day paddling and will go back for another session shortly. I suspect that the BCU's image may be a bit mis-represented. cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
It is refreshing to get information from those of you who have great knowledge and a common sense approach to kayaking. Especially, when your honest enough to let logic override possible conflicts with commercial connections, where profit often rules. I personally overheard a high-end kayak salesman tell a couple they couldn't get a decent or safe boat for under $2K and I've heard many "hard core" seakayakers tell people that they have to learn to roll to be a good kayaker, irrespective of what type of boat or kayaking the novice has in mind. Like I said in an earlier listing; Kayaks are like cars, you own seakayaks, sit-on-tops and/or whitewater boats for the same reason one buys sports cars, station wagons and/or four-wheelers. I submit that the training required to be a safe, proficient kayaker, need be as flexible as the types of craft available. Why would a person who is paddling a wide, stable recreation boat or one who can wade in most of the water he plays in, need to learn to roll? There are an awful lot of other techniques (forward strokes, high-low bracing and even safe and graceful (?) getting in and out of one-holers) that are more important to the beginners. My 2.5 cents worth ... Bob R. Creager Sarasota, FL Bc1431_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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