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From: Sisler, Clyde <Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] 303 substitute?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:08:26 -0500
I was on the verge of buying a dry suit and all the recent talk on
Paddlewise pushed me over the edge (not the mental edge, at least I don't
think so, but then again.....).

I drove an hour or so to the Kittery Trading Post, a favorite sports shop in
Maine, on Saturday and tried on a large (6', 185 lbs) Kokatat Gortex suit.
As I was rolling around on the floor trying to get my foot through the
gasket, a little 6-7 year old girl came over and very seriously asked 'are
you all right mister?'.  Before I could respond, Mom grabbed her hand and
pulled her away.  She must have thought I was over the edge too.

Anyway, I spent half the morning looking for 303 Protectant for the gaskets
without success.  Is there a reasonable substitue?  I have a TurtleWax
product for vinyl, etc. that brags about it's state-of-the-art UV protection
I'm tempted to try.
When I finally got my head through the neck gasket I noticed it was just a
wee bit tight and as  I was on the verge passing out, that my feet were also
starting to fall asleep too.  I heard/read somewhere to stick some
appropiate sized objects into the gaskets for a few days to help them
stretch.  Any comments on this technique?
Getting into and out of the dry suit was quite a workout.  I think I'll have
to put it on the night before so I have time to rest up for the next day's
paddle.  Of course then I'd probably have to piddle in the suit and slosh
around in it all day :-(.  Any idea as to the cost of having a fly put in
and how long it takes?



 


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From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] 303 substitute?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:55:39 -0500
Sisler, Clyde wrote <snippage happened>:
> 
> I was on the verge of buying a dry suit and all the recent talk on
> Paddlewise pushed me over the edge 
> 
> I drove an hour or so to the Kittery Trading Post, a favorite sports shop in
> Maine, on Saturday and tried on a large (6', 185 lbs) Kokatat Gortex suit.

My non-Goretex suit probably doesn't weigh more than 5 lbs. ;)

> 
> Anyway, I spent half the morning looking for 303 Protectant for the gaskets
> without success.  Is there a reasonable substitue?  I have a TurtleWax
> product for vinyl, etc. that brags about it's state-of-the-art UV protection
> I'm tempted to try.

A full set of gaskets costs about $100. They're latex, which is
different from vinyl. You can experiment if you want to, but I don't
think I would. You might try http://www.303-products.com/  They have a
sample package for cheap. Also a list of dealers. In fact, every kayak
outfitter I've ever set foot in sells the stuff.

> When I finally got my head through the neck gasket I noticed it was just a
> wee bit tight and as  I was on the verge passing out, that my feet were also
> starting to fall asleep too.  I heard/read somewhere to stick some
> appropiate sized objects into the gaskets for a few days to help them
> stretch.  Any comments on this technique?

Definitely try the stretch technique before you start cutting. If you
still think you need to cut, look at the concentric lines on the inside
of the gasket and cut _one_ at a time.

> Of course then I'd probably have to piddle in the suit and slosh
> around in it all day :-(.  Any idea as to the cost of having a fly put in
> and how long it takes?

About $100, which seems excessive to me. The full suit, including a long
zipper, costs $400-500. A second short zipper should cost 20-25% of the
whole thing?

Steve
-- 
Test Scoring & Reporting Services       Sometimes, you never can
University of Georgia                     always tell what you
Athens, GA 30602-5593                       least expect the most.
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From: Product Information Department <pid_at_mec.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stretching and cutting seals
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:43:05 -0800
At 09:55 AM 11/23/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Sisler, Clyde wrote <snippage happened>:
>> When I finally got my head through the neck gasket I noticed it was just a
>> wee bit tight and as  I was on the verge passing out, that my feet were
also
>> starting to fall asleep too.  I heard/read somewhere to stick some
>> appropiate sized objects into the gaskets for a few days to help them
>> stretch.  Any comments on this technique?
And Steve commented:
>Definitely try the stretch technique before you start cutting. If you
>still think you need to cut, look at the concentric lines on the inside
>of the gasket and cut _one_ at a time.


I'd suggest you try wearing the suit for a bit before you make any
adjustments to the seals. If you really do find them intolerable, then
stretch cautiously (you can always stretch them further, but you cannot
"unstretch" them). You're trying to hit the balance that allows you to wear
the suit comfortably, but still provides an effective seal.

I would not recommend cutting seals, for two reasons:

1. You are trimming away part of the "taper" that seals against your skin.
The greater the area that seals against your skin, the more effective the
seal.

2. More importantly, any unevenness and or notch in the cut can act as a
"stress riser". The seal is a "tensioned structure" in use, and stress
risers can cause the seal to split very easily.

As far as I know, all drysuit manufacturers suggest stretching rather than
cutting.

Happy, safe paddling,

Philip T. 

****************************************
Mountain Equipment Co-op
1655 West 3rd Avenue,
Vancouver, BC, Canada V6J 1K1
Tel: 640-732-1989
Fax: 604-731-6483
email: pid_at_mec.ca

Visit our website at: http://www.mec.ca
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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] 303 substitute?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:39:18 -0800
Sisler, Clyde wrote:
> 
> I was on the verge of buying a dry suit [snip]
> I drove an hour or so to the Kittery Trading Post, a favorite sports shop in
> Maine, on Saturday and tried on a large (6', 185 lbs) Kokatat Gortex suit.[snip]

> Anyway, I spent half the morning looking for 303 Protectant for the gaskets
> without success.  Is there a reasonable substitue? 

Not that I know of.  I would echo the advice of others:  stick with the 303.  The latex in the
gaskets is one of the least chemically-resistant rubbers formulated.  (It is only a few steps away
from rubber tree sap.)  Many rubber-treatment products, marketed for restoring the shine of your
tires, etc., contain silicone(s), which will destroy the latex, but not the rubber in tires
(different stuff).  (BTW:  I am very surprised the paddleshop does not sell it.  The stuff is
critical for prolonging the life of the gaskets -- renew it every month or so when not using the dry
suit, and *every* time you use the suit.)

I believe any of the following will ship it to you mail-order, if you can not locate it in your
area:

NWOC:  http://www.nwoc.com/

Pacific Wave:  http://www.teleport.com/~pacwave/

Alder Creek:  http://www.aldercreek.com/

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: David Seng <David_at_wainet.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] 303 substitute?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:24:08 -0900
Don't know about any good substitutes for 303 - most paddle shops carry
it, at least the ones that I've been in.  Maybe one of the kayak shop
owners that frequent this list might be able to help out if you can't
find locally.

Part of the "wrestling match" issue with your dry suit is probably also
technique - it took me a while to figure out the most effective way to
wriggle into my drysuit.  By all means - stretch those gaskets - I used
a coffee can to stretch the neck gasket on mine; before finally
resorting to a little bit of careful trimming....

One thing that I'm going to investigate when I next have to replace the
ankle gaskets is switching to a latex "footie" - might keep my feet
warmer and drier and also alleviate the problem of trying to fight my
feet through those gaskets - I have small (size 7.5) feet, I can't
imagine what it's like for folks with big feet<g>.

The other thing to remember about getting out of your drysuit is that it
can be MUCH harder to get out of after you are worn out and cold after
an hour or so of playing, and in my case, frequently swimming<vbg>, in
32+ degree surf.  One winter day after playing in the winter storm waves
of Lake Michigan I was so worn out and the windchill was so cold that I
simply couldn't worm my way out of the drysuit.  Drove home with the
suit on feeling silly.  I certainly didn't stop at the grocery store on
the way home.  It was one of those limit defining experiences, "too
tired to get out of your drysuit....what would you have done if
something had gone wrong out on the water?"  

Dave Seng
Juneau, Alaska  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sisler, Clyde [mailto:Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com]
snip
> As I was rolling around on the floor trying to get my foot through the
> gasket, a little 6-7 year old girl came over and very 
> seriously asked 'are
> you all right mister?'.  Before I could respond, Mom grabbed 
> her hand and
> pulled her away.  She must have thought I was over the edge too.
> 
> Anyway, I spent half the morning looking for 303 Protectant 
> for the gaskets
> without success.  Is there a reasonable substitue?  I have a TurtleWax
> product for vinyl, etc. that brags about it's 
> state-of-the-art UV protection
> I'm tempted to try.
> When I finally got my head through the neck gasket I noticed 
> it was just a
> wee bit tight and as  I was on the verge passing out, that my 
> feet were also
> starting to fall asleep too.  I heard/read somewhere to stick some
> appropiate sized objects into the gaskets for a few days to help them
> stretch.  Any comments on this technique?
> Getting into and out of the dry suit was quite a workout.  I 
> think I'll have
> to put it on the night before so I have time to rest up for 
> the next day's
> paddle.  Of course then I'd probably have to piddle in the 
> suit and slosh
> around in it all day :-(.  Any idea as to the cost of having 
> a fly put in
> and how long it takes?
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
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> PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List
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> **************************************************************
> *************
> 
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From: Bob Denton <BDenton_at_aquagulf.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] 303 substitute?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:05:54 -0500
Any of the Major marine supply stores: West, US Boat, etc. Also many of the
Kayaking mail order houses carry it. Then there's the drugstore and KY...but
no UV protection.


cya

>
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From: Patrick Maun <pmaun_at_bitstream.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] 303 substitute?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:07:57 -0600
I'll second Dave that the latex booties are a good idea. I just had some
put on my suit and it makes getting in and out a pleasure. Well, maybe not
pleasure, but much nicer. One of the main hassle of the suit used to be
pilling up all the various foogear (and still having leaks) and the
constant pain of leg hairs being pulled off.

A couple things to try when putting your suit on and taking it off: Always
put your fingers way in to the gasket and spread from deep in the gasket
rather than grabbing the edges. This will keep a lot of the stress of the
edge of the gasket where it can tear. If you are having trouble getting
your head in, experiment with the order you put your various limbs through
the gaskets. Putting my left arm in first, then my head, then my right arm
(on a Kokotat front-entry) seems to be easiest. I actually found the
easiest way to get the ankle gaskets off was to just pull the suit down
from the top and have them pop off (kind of like the wrong way to take
socks off). Always resign yourself to looking like a fool when suiting up.

-Patrick

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Maun
pmaun_at_bitstream.net


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From: Scott Ives <ssives_at_erols.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] 303 substitute?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:21:08 -0500
Clyde,

  Does your drysuit have rings on the neck gasket?  If so, you can
CAREFULLY cut down the gasket.  Just remember that if you cut it down
too much water will come in.  You can also stretch the neck out by
putting a round object in it, but this won't be a substitute if the neck
needs to be cut down.

 - Scott
 
Sisler, Clyde wrote:
> 
> When I finally got my head through the neck gasket I noticed it was just a wee bit tight and as  I was on the verge passing out, that my feet were also starting to fall asleep too....
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From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] 303 substitute?
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:04:55 EST
In a message dated 98-11-23 12:25:31 EST, David_at_wainet.com writes:

<< 
 One thing that I'm going to investigate when I next have to replace the
 ankle gaskets is switching to a latex "footie" - might keep my feet
 warmer and drier and also alleviate the problem of trying to fight my
 feet through those gaskets - I have small (size 7.5) feet, I can't
 imagine what it's like for folks with big feet<g>.
  >>

Kokatat has also (fairly recently, I guess) introduced a neoprene bootie which
it incorporates into its GoreTex suits.  They're probably a little more
survivable than the latex booties, but still need protection on longer or
rougher walks.  But it's two fewer Houdini tricks to play getting the suit on
and off, your feet stay warm and dry in thick polypro or ragg wool socks, and,
when you're building the suit, they add only about $50 to the price.  Dunno
the retrofit price for an existing suit.  Working from second hand knowledge,
but it looks like an excellent way to go for either bootie.  I'm choosing the
neoprene.

Jack
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