My $.02: One small issue for those who have suggested using fins to get in...If you do have to get out of the boat and do any maneuvering, fins will make a huge difference (. I would definitely want ones that go over booties so that once you get to shore, your feet will have some protection. (A few of the newer fins have quick release buckles so you don't have to crawl up the beach, out of the surf before prying off tight fin straps.) Thanks for the great discussion and contributions...quite enlightening for us "newbies." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This is an interesting but very depressing scenario.... So far it seems that no matter what one does, the ColdOne is not going to have an easy time and is going to get worse. None of the ideas seems to have a good chance of getting the ColdOne on the beach without getting wet and thus Colder. To get the victim to shore someone/victim is going to deliberately get out of a kayak or they stand a good chance of being forced out into an environment that will worsen their condition. Yikes. Someone had better be on the beach ready to warm the ColdOne and rescuer(s) either with a large fire and/or tent/sleeping bag. Gulp, I guess another way to look at this, the glass being half full, is that if nothing is done the ColdOne is almost certainly dead. So, while we don't want the rescuer(s) becoming a victim(s), if nothing is done, ColdOne is a gonner. They ain't going to get warm sitting in the kayak! Eventually they will become unconscious and then what? Gulp. Seems to me, while we are trying to figure out the BEST/SAFEST/QUICKEST way to get ColdOne on shore, are we not in CPR mode? If someone stops breathing they are dead. If one starts CPR you might break ribs, puncture lungs, etc. But they are already dead and if you don't do SOMETHING they will remain dead. There might be a better technique or approach, which we are collectively pondering, but unless something is done the victim is not going to make it. While we don't have a perfect or even close to perfect solution but even an imperfect solution is better than the alternative... 8-( If ColdOne stays on the water death is not far away not only to the first victim but will the conditions that got ColdOne get others in the group? Is staying on the water an option? Does not seem so. To make this worse, what to do if the conditions in the surf are so bad that landing the party will cause more casualties? Would it be better to raft the group up and try to get warm clothes around the victim? Could a sleeping bag be removed from a hatch to stuffed around the victim? If the surf is being kicked up by a storm front passing through, maybe it would be best to wait to see if the conditions improve. How long to wait? 8-) I have seen storm fronts move through making horrible conditions but within an hour everything is perfectly calm. Seems like I have gone full circle here! Maybe waiting is the thing to do. But if conditions are not going to improve or they are going to get worse, then there is nothing to do but get the victim ashore knowing that things are bad and are going to get worse for the ColdOne and maybe others...... 8-( Have at it! Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-11-06 18:39:56 EST, dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com writes: << Seems like I have gone full circle here! Maybe waiting is the thing to do. But if conditions are not going to improve or they are going to get worse, then there is nothing to do but get the victim ashore knowing that things are bad and are going to get worse for the ColdOne and maybe others. >> Roger your last, Dan. One thing we can be pretty sure about is that things are not going to get better, especially not for the victim. You don't stabilize a hypothermia victim's core temperature by keeping him in his boat; unless you take active rewarming measures, he's going to continue to sink into full hypothermia, become unconscious, and he will die. We don't have much time to wait for conditions to change. We don't have a lot of time at all. Other paddlers will get wet and cold; some could be hurt on landing; the victim will not have a pleasant ride into shore regardless of all efforts. There's a pretty strong consensus running --- at least from my read of the posts --- that we'll have to get someone to swim him in. Unless the surf is very light, the idea of carrying him in on an afterdeck is sketchy at best in my opinion. If he were to be washed off the deck or lose his grip --- and there's really good potential for that, even if he were not hypothermic --- we might lose him somewhere in the impact zone. Lose him as in <lose> him! Rafting or towing is not an option in surf. Our boats are lethal weapons in the surf zone, with or without a paddler. This shouldn't be a depressing thread. Some of us have been involved in less dramatic but still scary scenarios like this. It's a challenging thread specifically because it could easily be real --- and it could be us. What would we do --- and what would we do differently? Again, thanks, Julio. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I GIVE UP! It's been lessee, about 7 months since I had an argument with G_d-and HE WON placing me in my Pursuit for the time I was in coma. I just took a saw to my larger hand truck, cut off the horizontal platform leaving space for adding some padding left over from my mods to the yak. I live in Kirkland [for now] about a mile or so east of Jaunita Bay on Lake Washington [NE of Seattle]. There has been no word from Sec of State about my test [yesss... the doctor okayed me driving as long as I pass the drivers test] and I cannot find the paperwork to get a copy of my title for my truck from Michigan. PPPTOOOEY! I'm tired of waiting and the anti-deps I'm on seeem to finally be working soooo-either Saturday or Sunday [rain sched for tormorrow the w.channel says] I'll pack up my stuff, latch down the kayak, and tow by hand [and foot] my jury-rig to the water. I'll try to rememeber some of the advice I've [gratefully] received concerning what to do with "gawkers". My largest concern is that huge hill [I was born in MI-We got LOTS of hills like that here <g>] I'll have to climb going both directions-hmmm Sunday's looking better and better <g>. I got a Yakima Yak cable lock I'll use to keep a hold on this newer-larger "trailer" while I'm in the water. Thank you all for your support and uh, Wish me luck! <G> Tom in Kirkland,Wa. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Tom, > > I GIVE UP! <snip> > > I live in Kirkland [for now] about a mile or so east of Jaunita Bay on > Lake Washington [NE of Seattle]. Aren't there any other kayakers in your area? Do you have a club in your area? Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 21:24 11/6/98 -0800, Jackie Fenton wrote: Hi Jackie, >> I GIVE UP! What I meant was I give up WAITING for these silly road-blocks that keep popping up to go away... >Aren't there any other kayakers in your area? Do you have a club in >your area? Frankly Jackie, the answeres to those questions lye in part of my brain that has sort of gone "white." That is, back when I "shoulda, coulda, woulda," I didn't-I took classes but seems like I treated kayaking back then as a relatively solitary experience. My expectations for a drivers and truck license in September or earlier obviously didn't pan out and frankly I am feeling my need to paddle has put me "outta sync" when it comes to solutions. I think that I found a happier time when it was "I" who was working with the handicapped [who btw were far worse off than I am now] going out in search of "help" not knowing even how to do the task is an obstical that causes me at the least, confusion and... Sorry, If there is anyone in the area that would be interested in helping me achieve that firrst trip in the water I'd of course be willing to do what I can to make it happen-frankly I'm a bit ashamed of myself fore even being in this position and do not want to be a bother... Thanks again Jackie, Tom... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Still More GULPS! I'm trying limit the limitless variables that I keep thinking up concerning our ColdOne. But I've been thinking of the leader's responsibilities to the Group as opposed to ColdOne. What are the thoughts from people who have led trips, large/commercial trips particularly. I can't think of any actual incidents that are close to what we have been talking about. Does anyone know of a related incident? I think we may have come to an ethical/moral problem as opposed to a kayaking technical problem....... I'm just going to ignore Legal..... We have been talking almost exclusively about the ColdOne and technical methods to get the victim to shore. What about the other members in the group? If the group is two people, LeaderWithNoGoodChoices and ColdOne, what if the surf conditions are such that even our poor leader might not survive? The two are at a point along the coast where it is to rocky and rough to make a landing. Or just flat out impossible. What should LeaderWithNoGoodChoices do? If a landing is very high risk or impossible, what to do? Leave ColdOne? If staying rafted up is possible, ColdOne is eventually a Goner since s/he can't be warmed up. Leaving ColdOne to try to get help does not work either. Staying with ColdOne likely risks the life of LeaderWithNoGoodChoices but rea lly does not help the victim. What is the correct action? Is this now an ethical question? Assuming that towing or landing is not an option it seems like you try to wait it out with ColdOne. GULP! What if there are three or more people in the group. In the last scenario MAYBE a person(s) could paddle to find a rescuer leaving a person(s) to keep GoldOne from going bottom up. If the landing is possible just really ugly and likely to lead to further injuries to ColdOne and the rescuers, what about the rest of the group? What responsibilities does LeaderWithNoGoodChoices have to toward them? Are they now being placed at risk to do an unforeseen landing in bad conditions? Should they paddle on their original course after ColdOne and friends have made a landing? Does TheLeaderWithNoGoodChoices have more responsibility to ColdOne than the others? When does the health of the rest of the group overtake concerns for ColdOne? There are many variables in this such as the skill level in the group, is there someone who can take over leadership if the group splits, wind direction, wind speed, sea state, etc. but at what point does the trip leader decide that the group is more important? What options does LeaderWithNoGoodChoices have at that point? What about ColdOne? Seems like in some of this you quickly come to a point of having to make a decision that you can live with when the 20/20 glasses are on, aka, looking in the mirror. Or a decision that might be the less painful..... Later... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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